The Atheist’s Guide to Proof of the Afterlife

0:00 WTF just happened. Have you ever found yourself asking yourself that question? Well, today's guest has, in fact, she does that on a regular basis while diving into evidence of the afterlife in psychic mediums as an atheist. If you're one of those questions of validity behind life after death claims being thrown around in our space all the time, then this is the show for you. Because once she started looking into all the evidence as an atheist, mind you, she says that she was blown away. You don't want to miss this one welcome to the skeptic metaphysicians. My name is Will. And I'm Karen. And unlike Molder and Scully. Both want to believe. So we've embarked in a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined a covenant with you. And wait, you joined a covenant?

0:50 Yep. All in the interest of finding something. Anything. That will prove that there's something beyond this physical three-dimensional world we all live in. This is the skeptic metaphysicians. Today's story is called The Butterfly. A man found a cocoon from a butterfly. One day a small opening appeared. So he sat and watched the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through that little hole. Until suddenly it stopped making any progress and looked like it was stuck. So the man decided to help the butterfly took a pair of scissors and sniped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. So the butterfly could then emerge easily. Although we had a swollen body and small shriveled wings. The man didn't think anything of it and sat there waiting for the wings to enlarge to support the butterfly. But that never happened. The butterfly spent the rest of its life unable to fly crawling around with tiny wings in a swollen body. Despite the kind heart of the man, he didn't understand that the restricting cocoon in the struggle needed by the butterfly to get itself through the small opening, we're God's way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings to prepare itself for flying once it was out of the cocoon.

2:23 Well the moral of this story fits in so well when it comes to all things spiritual. You see, our struggles in life develop our strengths. Without struggles, we never grow and never get stronger. So it's important for us to tackle challenges on our own and be grateful for them because every challenge prepares us with the ability to handle the results. Welcome to the skeptic metaphysicians. Liz Anton began examining evidence of an afterlife and anything paranormal in 2015 following the passing of her father. But what she was still considered herself skeptical and an atheist, the evidence that she found just blew her away.

3:11 She's the author of WTF just happened a science-esceptic exploration of grief, healing and evidence of an afterlife and the host of the podcast of the same name all about the afterlife. No rule in that show folks just plain talk with you. No I love. Obviously you've noticed it. I am without caring today. Sadly she had a family obligation to attend too so it's just me. But I am super well accompanied by Elizabeth Anton. Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you today. Me too because what you're talking about is right up my alley first and foremost. I know that you say that you are an atheist. Right. So let's set the table by atheists. You mean you don't believe in anything or can you quantify that for me? Sure. I guess when I say atheist, I think of atheist as believing and God in religion and I've never seen any evidence of God and I've just I don't think God has anything to do with an afterlife. I think that you are completely separate and I think the alignment that so many people have to me I respect it. But from a factual perspective it doesn't make any sense.

4:17 I'm really curious to hear how you put the two together because like the space that we're into spiritual world that we're both in, it's really tied to a lot about the afterlife. But it talks a lot about God or the universe or energies or whatever it is. So you don't think there's a, if I'm correct me from wrong, you don't think that there's a white guy in a robe sitting on a throne in heaven. Right. So I would find that probably the least likely explanation of everything that could happen. Am I going to say factually? But to me that is I can't think of anything less likely. All right. So then what and I'm sorry we're deviating a little bit. But then what is your thought? Like how what is God for you if anything? I think I mean I have researched a lot of the studies done on afterlife survival of consciousness, non-local consciousness and I just don't see how from I think it's more of a physics-based answer that in some form that we don't know yet, similar probably to how the cloud works. I deal with something along the lines of the large catering collider, significantly more advanced. We'll be able to figure out what the substance is. But that our consciousness is not created by brain, but downloaded by a brain and continues in some form that is much more advanced than some singular moral consciousness that somewhat resembles a human

5:49 that a current religion has, I would say, as questionable morals anyway. And that that created all this. It just seems just irrelevant to the topic. And there's just a ton of data that our consciousness is not local and downloaded. And to me that question has nothing to do with, is there one singular huge consciousness that created it? So it's just... Okay so really I didn't mean to make this into a conversation about religion or anything like that or the meaning of God. But the question has to be asked, do you then some people believe that maybe we are all parts of God? I don't want to hesitate to do that word in your presence. But when we die, when we pass on, we reconnect, we become one once again. So my question would be first. Two questions. One is that your thought process. And if so, then what is it that we join up with? Okay so first, no my thought process is not that at all.

6:51 It was just... I'd go into originally my original thought that even got me down this path, obviously aside from grief was at this point I thought consciousness was created by our brain neurons. And this will lead into answering your question. No worries. So if that happened once to create a me or to create my dad, why could it not happen again? Not necessarily me again, not related to karma, but just another set of brain neurons coincidentally creating another human and it would get to be something I would experience. Not as Liz, but just something somebody else is if you got to have the experience of being another person. And to me the only other thought I thought was possible at that point was complete obliteration. So even though I wouldn't have any memories of my life, it was better than never having an experience of consciousness again. Part two of my thought was, is there any possibility in any way shape or form that some of the memories have carried over? So I googled that. I found researchers at the University of Virginia, Dr. Jim Tucker and his mentor who's sent us past away Dr. Ian Stevenson factually studying cases of kids with past life memories and getting at-care results after matching up with data. So my whole approach afterwards I found wind bridge with Dr. Julie Byshal, more researchers at the University of Virginia, such as Dr. Bruce Grayson, who studied near death experiences and Dr. Echeli and Dr. Emily Teli who also studies medium-shep and significantly

8:27 others. So I just came from it not as their regard, but is there any data that shows that in some way shape or form we can get information, mediums can get information, that's factual and accurate that they could not know by more meanings such as Google A and Cold Reading and if so, if all of this is happening from accurate medium readings, cases of kids with past life memories that check out near-death experiences, this stuff and occurrences and results are absolutely not explicable if our consciousness is created by brain neurons and when we die that's it. So what answers does that leave? And there's no answer in the explanation of consciousness created by a brain that could explain for this. I sincerely hope it survival of consciousness. I think that's the most likely explanation and where is it we go? I don't know. I wish I knew. Maybe I'll say it's just this place of complete love. I have personally I don't like the word belief because none of this is based of belief it's based on actual data and some personal experiences I've had such as getting medium readings as well as some other weird things, but we'll talk about all those but go ahead.

9:51 Yeah, yeah. This is just pure data so I don't like to have belief in anything. I'm sure I'm human we all have beliefs it's impossible to say I don't carry beliefs but I try not to and so where do we go? So maybe this is my coming in with a little bit of belief. Mediums say that when we pass away it's all love and then we come here to learn. I have a hard time believing that in this other dimension it's all perfect pure love with the conflict we have here. So I'm guessing they might experience it that way if I could guess and again this isn't data. This is now I am going a little into the belief realm but my guess is they experience that or people experience near-death experiences as all love because like you know let's say you've been traveling for a month that haven't talked to your parents or your spouse and you reach them you'll call them and you're like oh my god I love you so much you're not arguing over stupid things or irritated at each other and are you come back from a you know I'm thinking about like the first time you go to college and you come home and see your parents like that first day and I'm sure there are exceptions but overall that for a day you just feel so like the warmth and love so near-death experiences is the very first moment of crossing over. So that's my guess. I can totally see and hear the scientists skeptic still hiding under your words and yet you're trying to in your mind make things make sense from a pragmatic point of view and I love that because that's been me the entire time. Up until

11:22 well this show has changed some things for me let's just put that way but what I find interesting is that there's a thought that science there's no way that science can explain some of these things because our scientific instruments stop just short of being able to measure into this other realm that we apparently go to once we pass over. So really there's no way to truly know what's out there without actually experiencing ourselves and yet it seems that a lot of us who are pragmatic and mindset and scientific and skeptical we tend to try to still wrap it around some form of scientific explanation for something that may or may not have a scientific basis to talk specifically about your love comment that makes perfect sense right as you come back from a long trip and also you see your family for the first time and oh my god you reminded of how much you missed them and how much you love them and then maybe that passes maybe doesn't most of the time it passes a little bit the intensity is not as strong but then there's another school of thought that says that we are love that that is our true nature we are love so when we pass over we're actually becoming who we truly are which is love at which point then might we experience complete love with abandon well we're out there.

12:40 I would think it would get boring I do think in one sense and again this is more getting into philosophy than evidence I do think we are in essence love in the sense that's when we thrive but I don't think I mean we just can't say that's all there is to us it seems like too much wishful thinking because of how there are people who are really cruel people we can't deny that there's conflict so I just where does that come from I don't think I think we'll just be going against facts to say there's only love is that the ideal is that maybe what our goal is to strive towards yes and I mean I hope we just cross over and there's only love but maybe it's like 30 dimensions down the line because otherwise I don't think like a Hitler or I mean I'll leave politics out of it but I'm gonna be people you know would be here so you know like yeah Hitler serial killers right right I understand what you're saying and I think we could debate this for a long time because I love it and I love playing devil's advocate very quickly though I will say that could it not be that when we are in that other plane we are perfection right we are love we are goodness in carnit it's the act of coming into the three-dimensional space where we forget our divinity that then we become human and have the foibles that come along with being human from the get there's a school

14:11 as thought that says that we are perfect but when we come here become human that's when our foibles take over our emotions are greed right there's no doubt especially in this country that greed is a runaway problem right now and I think greed is the cause of a lot of our challenges and our our problems and I think that's because of the human condition when we all just want more and more right that competitive edge we've had since we were keeping right I mean I sincerely hope we just all across over it it's pure love but I think from what we know with near-death experiences and I think this would make the most sense is that you go through the life review where you're really accountable my thought that we and again philosophy not evidence aside from the life for review my thought that it would just were all just so advanced that come here it's kind of like well why come here maybe this is the step working towards that but pure love I mean who wouldn't want that to be true I mean I will be really happy if that's the case my guess is maybe we're much more like much more advanced than what we are here and it's the next step but I still do think there's some form of progress I mean you look at it two year old and they have a fight and they're screaming at each other and like someone takes one two-year-olds toy and they throw like sand in the sandbox in the other space and to them

15:42 grown-ups and again I'm sure there's exceptions of really horrible traumatic homes but overall grown-ups look like they don't have problems because you never see adults act that way but then there's this whole other slew of problems and when you look back at being too like oh my god I can't believe I was upset that my friend wanted to play with my teddy bear for two minutes and my parents made me give it to them for five minutes to learn to share and that was the worst thing that ever happened and you just have such a perspective but then we have a whole other slew of problems that a two year old wouldn't necessarily understand and we deal with them in a way a two-year-old wouldn't observe and if I to guess it's something like that as you progress but I also think if you just are that and you come here why come here although I yeah I mean I definitely don't think it's like I think eagles more complex than just evil but I do think there are evil energies probably I don't know but I I've heard I'm living it's just love and then only just human that makes things something's horrible I think we have to look at the facts that there is a lot of horrible and a lot of good and both are true and what is the source we don't we don't know yet but I do think we have an innate drive to move towards love and good I mean feeling anger and hatred and it's a horrible feeling we don't but this would be

17:13 this is such a complicated philosophy it's this is all just kind of playing with ideas I can't say absolutely in this and that's really what we're doing here right where I love the debate yeah over dinner over coffee over drink trying to be devils out of kid trying to come look at it in the philosophical point of view from different perspectives is all great but I do want to talk specifically about you and how you got into this space because the death of a loved one is always incredibly traumatic and some people handle it in different ways you ran in the direction of is their life after death because I assume you wanted to make contact in some way where others might have just oh well he's gone and moved on the life you dove into it in a very sincere way so I want to hear about that before we move forward yeah there's two tiers I think to that first just the innate like shattering grief and just that moment of desperation actually even before I thought of and found the research of Dr. Jim Tucker my immediate thought was as there a way to turn back time since I started to find you know reading about time Einstein's theory of time relativity and so much of science fiction has ended up coming true is there some scientific way to turn back time one day and like five thousand years someone will know to go back and get my dad at this

18:46 day when medicine is significantly better and so that was just the very first thought I didn't necessarily think it was practical but it was sort of the only place I knew to go to and so from there I was so fast say by what I discovered about the relativity of time and just our universe is a significantly different than we perceive and then finding the research of Dr. Jim Tucker and it became a combination of this desperation to see my dad again and not just think he was obliterated facing my own mortality and other ones mortality and just this mind-blown fascination like if you have never ever thought something like an after life as possible aside from my guess why it was very little like my parents told me something like cute story of habit and I was like you can think of that like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny pretty much you know that was obviously we tell the child about death and just it was both if this was to be true this was the most remarkable thing I could imagine in terms of happiness I just it would be unfathomable and it just some existential dread would change and scientifically just the most fascinating thing like think about when you're a child and you have I guess this fantasy of finding it's hidden door to a whole new secret world it's like this is existing this is the most amazing scientific breakthrough the only thing that I could imagine equating that would be opening a door

20:19 and walking into a room and seeing colors I'd never seen before or finding out you can space travel to a new galaxy with different species not even our solar system like a whole or galaxy a whole new galaxy and just it had that level of fascination as well as you know realistic hope I could see my dad and could continue living myself so that was what just propelled me and propelled me and I can go more into what I learned and experience if you'd like yeah we definitely going to do that just to clarify your dad passed away from medical complications yes yeah he had a stroke got you yep when you mentioned someone traveling back in time and getting the medicine he needed to make himself better I wanted to clarify that I assumed that the way that you researched whether there was life after death was by reaching out to psychic mediums and things like that to see if you can make contact were you able let's just jump to the spoiler were you able to make contact with your dad I'm pretty sure I did yes and yeah after doing the research it took me reading multiple studies and books and up to quintuple blinded studies on mediumship and taking some classes at the Ryan Education Center all this logical science and reading it reading it before I was like maybe this might sound crazy but maybe I'll go get a medium reading and go to some medium workshops and my very first reading she knew stuff she

21:49 could not have known and I hide my identity I wasn't like I am Elizabeth Edden here is my credit card here's my email phone number like he's my birthday yes yes exactly I'm like you're in none of that and she was amazing and I was like what the fuck like I just saw someone in front of my face to find the laws of the universe it was like I had chills she brought in my dad my grandma my cat I was just like wow amazed and I just remember leaving and turning to my mom who I made come out with me but she went into a different room she went come in she thinks this is all crazy but I just turned to her and I was like oh my god I think this is real and from there I was just so amazed I'm like I have to see this again so I started getting other medium readings and it was across the board like I had quite a few where I think they were very honest-hearted but not very accurate I had a couple that I was like hey are completely full of shit and they knew it and I yeah and then I had more that I was just like they could not have known this and it's just it's so profound it's just like yeah like getting or getting to travel intergalactically getting to jump into another dimension of string theory it's just I wasn't the words for how profound it was yeah no have you had any experience with the organization that studies your death experiences oh yeah yeah I've read a lot of gone to some of their

23:25 zoom talks especially when we were all in quarantine I think really highly of them. Mm great so because there's a there are a lot of scientifically minded people in that organization which is great then the other people who are just full on in the woo and I find it I find it really interesting to see the dynamic between that whole group winter in the same room together but how long did it take from the time that your father passed when you started looking into this in earnest to the moment you got your psychic medium reading that went for a change your whole world how long was that the research? Let's see I got my first reading she said I had to wait till my dad I was like I didn't tell her it was my dad so my person I had to wait until they had been gone at least six months that's what this specific woman said and I was on another woman's waitlist who has a really long waitlist so I ended up going to her workshops but I hadn't gotten a reading with her so this woman I guess let's see it was maybe about eight months after my research after my research that I got my first reading okay yeah it's interesting six months I hadn't heard that number I think I heard forty days it has to be as happens but I did here it's consistent with you have to wait a certain amount of time because I guess the soul has to get acclimated or whatever it is different medium say different things I have come to think it's just a personal choice of the mediums and each one I'm sure has their own reasons we're saying it but I've heard of mediums have someone come in that day and you know maybe I mean I'm gonna I don't know I'd have to

25:00 respect and ask why each one says what they say but there isn't a consistency in that I have heard some say they will say that because they just having someone that early in grief they don't feel comfortable with they feel the person needs to process they feel could be dangerous for them psychologically like they're not therapists they feel they don't want to take them on that early but each one so some of them it's ethics some of them maybe the way their vibrations work they can't connect until six months I don't specifically know for each of them but they all have different reasons it's interesting to hear you talk because you are very pragmatic in a lot of different ways and you just talked about different vibrations that that people have that doesn't really fit into that box so I'm fascinated in a time between 2015 that your debt passed and now it's almost 10 years have you seen a progression of change in you as you go are you starting to lean more towards maybe some more woo material or is it you very much sticking to this is scientific and there is nothing that can do to my mind I guess you can say I'm leaning more towards what people could call woo but with a non-woo up approach I think I guess I'll go to things have happened that would be to find us woo but I think in the end everything science science is just explains the facts of how things work so I think this happened there's a quote actually by Dr Ian Stevenson I'm not saying

26:32 it's true I'm just saying it happened so these things are happening and I will use I think when you get into woo there's using somewhat of unrelatable words and an acceptance that of just belief and you're not trying to get data so I will say this happened I don't know what to say about it but at this aspect verified it this was just a weird thing that happened that wasn't verifiable I would like to try to verify it more and putting it all together using factual language like an example just quickly let's say you take an out of body experience and someone goes out and to me the word vibration isn't so woo because it's literally a physical experience and even stringing you talk yeah so when I tried to do out of body exercises I will feel waves and what is literally vibration so what would be used to vibration if you took like you stood on like a vibrating plate you know which is what the gym classes I go to and I'll feel them a few feet above my body I can't say I know why I'm doing that so if you take a woo for lack of a better word approach you'd say I rose into the energetic field and I felt like the angels around me and if you're to take a science-based approach I say I felt as if there were waves of vibrations and if the nerves of my body instead of ending at my skin and did a few feet above and that's just the facts I'm not adding more to it so what's the next step the next step is to try to get

28:05 better and see if I can go verify something if it really is out of body can I actually start to get senses and physiological senses like eyesight and smell and some people have and they report back then with facts that they were able to verify so that is the next step so I just try to report only the facts and not draw conclusions beyond what I can get from actual facts. Makes perfect sense so I got to ask the question have you yourself been able to leave your body? I don't know so I is that we think my body when I feel sensations a few feet above maybe I've had dreams of going to places that were then verified but what is that? Is that leaving my body? Is that remote viewing?

28:56 Which I guess I'll be out of body experiences. I'll be ease versus remote viewing could be described as I come over to your place and I say oh you have that blue cup on your table versus work here on video which would more be remote viewing. Oh I see that blue cup on your table. We don't know how it works. I was I was I out of body was I getting was I remote viewing was I safely reading somebody and then saw what they saw. I don't know but some people will say they've gone out of body and I will believe them when they have been able to verify where they felt they were out of body they felt sensations they visited somebody and they came or a place and came back with information about that person or place and other people have even verified and said oh you know maybe they visit someone who is a medium and they'll say oh I saw you you were out of body at this time and something corroborates. So then I've got to bring it back to something you said earlier it's fascinating to think about it is it something that someone psychically or whatever ESP wise to let the receive that information from you and then you spit out saying this that whatever could the psychic medium instead of actual having contact with the dear dearly departed dad gotten the information from you psychically and that's what you heard. That is one of the big questions. I actually Dr. Julie Baishill I have a few responses to this first of all there's actual studies done by Windbridge to test

30:29 for just that and they for example one of the ways they do highly blinded readings where the sitter goes and takes down all the information the sitter's the one who the medium's giving the information to and the sitter doesn't actually know I guess they're called a proxy sitter they actually don't know who the reading is for it's one of the experimenters out of I don't know what pool or volunteer experimenters and so how could the medium be reading the mind of that sitter so then I mean it you can look at when bridge for all the details but essentially the person they're giving the information too does not know. Then there's another part where mediums have given me information I thought was wrong and said no and clarified with somebody else one of my breathes was a medium this was early in our friendships as she didn't know much about me my uncle had recently passed I purposely did not tell her that and she I'd always thought he was over six feet he was under six feet and really angry about it but I was never told that I didn't even know because I guess he was really angry and he was young and my parents were older parents so like by the time he was older middle age when I was born he wasn't talking about it anymore but she kept saying he's just under six feet I kept saying no and it was true and that's not the only bit of information and this has come up repeatedly and research now another part of this is mediums I've got to trust them at this point once who've passed scientific studies once I know I

32:03 mean I wouldn't go on this alone but they say it feels completely different little describe it in different ways and now there's one medium who even says she see psychic information one she likes these a screen and see psychic information on the left and medium ship on the right I might have reversed it but she's also studied highly by scientists she's had a brain scan and the brain activity in psychic versus medium shows up differently fascinating that's amazing quick question I do want to talk to you about the book in the podcast but before we do that a question jumps into my mind because you had a lot of experience with psychic mediums I know there's an organization out there that certifies mediums we had him on the show that talk about his organization and he found it which I think is fantastic and they actually have a website where here the mediums that are actually certified as and he has to be 100% they can't have a single thing in correct that's not true actually yeah so I'm very bald of forever family foundation bob and his life friend gets broke were my absent mentors is in friend was just the one the hardest things so you knew you knew fanon I knew her very well she was like oh that's amazing because when we met bob he she had already passed yeah yeah yeah Fran is like I feel yeah she was probably one of the most important people in my life the past few years so yeah sign up for him very very well and I was only the person they have to be 100% accurate that's not that's not the case that is not the case no medium is 100% accurate they have to

33:35 be significantly accurate beyond the odds of chance so for example let's say I'll take a random person let's say they lost their grandmother Sarah who so medium might sit there and say an S name like Sarah Sarah I'm getting a grandmother energy on your mother's side she died at 70 she was a high school teacher had two children and she rode horses and that's really significant let's say she was not a high school teacher and that was wrong let's say she did not ride horses but the rest is really impressive so that would still be a medium who passed okay and well then I apologize to all those taking me to what called a fraud in my mind when they were wrong with one thing sorry about that right but if they're getting most wrong or if mediums are getting everything right but it's general like you have a 30 year old sitting in front of you and you're like you've had a lot of loss like you don't have any living great grandparents am I right and you know I see that your great grandmother they sort of were in like that traditional role and your great grandfather was too like the male female they had a lot of children like there's things that just can be very general generation based and some of those mediums might be frauds they might be really genuine herded and just get very general information and maybe just having pushed themselves to be evidential because maybe their clients have acquired it or maybe

35:09 they're just things are popping like I've taken mediumship classes and I have sat with people and given them readings and information is coming into my head that's really logical because I'm doing the assignment I'm told to say what comes into my head and I know it's coming logically and I'm trying to be right to do the assignments because I'm there but and the person depending who some are either maybe they're very believey or and in the class with them and they're trying to be respectful and they're like no you're good you're getting everything right I'm like right but of course I am there's just certain things and you person can to do it right sure so so so then do you think that the only way to make sure you don't get swindled by a psychic medium who's just foolish is to just not give them any information at all to be a complete blank slate or there are other ways you can make sure that that doesn't happen to you. I think the this is a fine line and the beginning I was just like give nothing I think I think it's a fine line I think take protocols give you know hide your identity as much as you can and when you're sitting there I mean you have to let them lead a little bit but you can afterwards be like oh that was you're like bullshit but I think if they come in and the first thing they say is yeah it really because it is a fine line because I did it too much of like not say anything in the beginning and scientific studies like again if you read like the research studies like Dr. Julie

36:41 by actually literally give nothing but you know when you're getting a reading it's a fine line you know don't give them more than they ask for if they're like I'm getting like a tea named a book oh my god that's my brother I can't believe he's here and he I miss him so much we were twins don't do that say yes and then if they ask for a little more if they're like I'm just not getting like he and getting he's your generation but not more than that then you can say okay he was my twin or if you're understanding something and they're not and you can tell like let's say I don't know like you look okay so I'm giving a little my own evidence here but you know okay like like I got a few readings in the beginning where they're like was your dad either hurt enough fire or was he a fireman who's the fireman why am I hearing fire fire island was really important in our family as a child so maybe they're seeing a fire because you are working with humans so my dad would be like fire dollar fire island fire so they're just seeing fire because fire island isn't any place they've ever heard of or been let's say so they're saying so he's giving them because it's not like it's not as good as speaking on the phone it's just not if it was we wouldn't be questioning and studying if there's an afterlife we would know if you've just sit there and are so literal that you say no then you're

38:15 not going to get more but if you say in that situation I would say yeah there's something that would be like not exactly but fire makes sense can you give me a little more and if they're like oh I can't you know can you give me some more then you can yeah and I'd say fire island is where I went the summers and maybe suddenly they're like oh my god yes that's it that feels right and I believe they say that feels right because they're certified by rubber family or wind bridge and they got quite a bit of information like they got the letter of my dad they don't always get the name sometimes they do they got like aspects of his personality and hobbies and work so I'm like okay I already trust them and so then if I say yes it was fire island my readings can be that much better because that's all that makes so much sense let's see if we can go further with that and maybe they got a specific memory from that I think if if you're not doing what I'm doing where it's really about research and you go to a medium and they're not getting that information and they're trying to ask you a lot of questions because I've experienced this and it's clear they're fishing I will start to let them lead and go along with it because it helps by research if I really just wanted this reading for itself and I wasn't getting readings regularly and exploring you have a right to say don't wait like 40 minutes in but after like five or 10 minutes if everything you're saying is no an ethical medium will say and this has happened to me I'm so sorry I'm not getting the information that you need I'm not connecting we can end this now and I'll refund you or you can come back in like

39:50 a month and we'll see if it's better so it's all a balance I think the way to prevent getting slindled don't give your information upfront don't make it Googleable then once you're there it's really it's refined and just don't pour out just try to say yes no or maybe until there's a reason to say anything more than that and then the other this is just one of the things I mean some people might just be like well obviously but nevertheless people when you're in grief or trauma it brings some work the same way so there is it is absolutely not on you if this has happened to you in any way but some mediums which had happened to me told me had like bad energy around me and she sold $300 candles that would cure it anyone tries to sell do not do not do not do not that doesn't mean if you're like oh you know I would love to try to say could reading again then or another reading or something yeah you're going to have to pay for another service but they don't try to sell up any up sell you have a curse on your family and I can lift it for $500 yeah exactly exactly so do want to talk to you about your book and your podcast WTF just happened yes was the book first or was the podcast first which came first check it of the egg book came way first the podcast yes the podcast was one of those I'm lonely and I'm alone in my room and I saw I did a work quarantine I want to talk to work people let me just try a podcast it'll be fun and then it was so much more fun and I expected it and I taught myself like

41:24 I said it and it was just ended up being an addition but now something I definitely want to stick with we talked of all this time about after life and second mediums is that what you show when you're book is about or is it does it dive a little bit more into other things so my book it's another one is going to be coming out at some point and it soon is so my book which I'll explain why I said that so my book starts with from when my father first got really sick to about maybe like two to three years after and all the research I had done in my experiences that it talks some it doesn't start with mediums it starts with research and the doctor's of talk and it starts with how I'm like oh my god what the fact like they're actually seems to be some evidence but there has to be a catch and it starts with how I keep going further and further with this and then start meeting the people and then so much has happened since the book ended so much like I've gotten this is just when I first start meeting the people and I've gotten to know them really well and have participated with them in experiments and done so much more and that's what I'm going to go into next so this is just the whole journey what the book just happened of how I went from thinking there was zero chance of it after life to all these very logical reasons to why I completely changed my mind it's actually like light and funny and talks about like all the awkward things that happened along the way like yeah just yes I'm sure

42:56 like met the mediums and tried to like see if they were cheating and like when who's one of my best friends now like thought I was like a journalist trying to expose him and just really silly things happened along so I and friends with big part of the book too so that was in the book then so then you do suggest you read the book first and then listen to the podcast or can you jump into the podcast without having had to read the book you can jump into the podcast so the podcast is a variety it's psychic mediums I have like it's paris psychologists like Lloyd Arbock it's a few people who've had personal experiences who verify it it's near death researchers it's um I have someone who's an animal communicator yeah so just it's across the board I even have as someone that person hasn't come out yet but I'm going to have ones on out of body I'm going to have ones on remote viewing and I'm going to have a skeptic who's like a professional skeptic who doesn't think any of this is true and we just get into a really interesting conversation and that's actually one of my favorite episodes not ready yet but it's just really interesting sounds fascinating I can't believe that the time is flown so fast if someone wanted to listen to your show or reach out to you we're going to add for sure those links in our show notes but what's the best way for someone to reach you if they are so inclined you can go to my website which is wTFjusthappened.net because that links to everything you can link to my email you can link to amazon we can buy my book you can link to all the places that you can listen to my podcast

44:28 or on all the all the usual places you can find me on my social media like Instagram and TikTok a lot of people reach out to me Instagram you can email me and all that's right on my website for you to find. Perfect that's awesome this has been so much fun we're definitely going to add those links I'm going to connect with you offline because any friend of Bob's a friend of mine for sure. Thank you so much. Now we have a lot more skip the minutes of this and coming up so stay with us we'll be right back. We got what might be our new favorite review this one is from john masina and he gave us a five star review and titled it great show for those both new and old to metaphysics. He goes on to say I'm a UPS driver for work so I've got a lot of podcast listening time because of this I've listened to almost every episode of the show amazing I've believed in many of not all of the modalities spoken about on this podcast for as long as I can remember I felt weird for just having a knowing about certain things and because of my knowing I always understood that the world around me wasn't ready to talk about this stuff yet so I kept it to myself forever the chameleon. I still explored it well into my 20s diving into all sorts of mind expanding situations and discussions with the few I knew would hear and understand me.

45:58 Then I got a big boy job and that part of me stayed on the back burner for a few years. A few months back I was craving something that could connect to in all levels enter the skeptic metaphysicians after a brief google search for best podcast that discussed metaphysics I found this podcast at the top of the list so naturally I dove in. Fast forward about four months and I only have a couple of episodes left. My only complaint is that there isn't a few hundred more episodes but I guess I should have piece myself better so that's on me. You guys are great thank you for all the work you do and making me feel normal and folks that's the most important part of this review.

46:41 This last sentence says thank you for making me feel normal and that's a very powerful statement because a lot of us are feeling this seismic shift that is happening in our world right now and a lot of us are feeling weird and off and this stuff if it speaks to us if it resonates with us sometimes it makes us feel like we are not right like we're not normal and the fact that we're diving into these things we're showcasing we're showing that these things these fields are coming in inside of you they're normal we're all real normal people going through an awakening on mass so if you've ever felt abnormal then take it from John this is a show for you because we are normalizing these conversations John thank you thank you so much for sending us this review and for being such an habit listener of our show we can't do it without you and we really appreciate you if you would like to hear your review read on the air just go to skepticmanifusitions.com you can either leave us a review there written or go to apple podcasts and leave us a review written there or if you prefer to speak your mind you can always go to skepticmanifusition.com hit the leave us a voicemail tab and record us a voicemail that we will possibly air on the show thanks again John and thank you for listening to the show thanks for coming along on this journey discovery with us we'd love to continue our conversation

48:17 with you on our website at skepticmanifusition.com or on Facebook and Instagram under skeptic show do them and us a favor and share the show with them it will help get the word out about us and it may just change someone's life for the better and if you're listening to this on the radio you missed something well not to worry all of our shows including this one can be found at skepticmanifusition.com we can also watch the videos we even send us an email or voicemail directly from the site we absolutely love feedback and would appreciate hearing from you I hope you've enjoyed this episode much as we have that all for now we'll see you on the next episode of the skeptic metaphysicians. Until then take care [Music]