The Atheist’s Guide to Proof of the Afterlife | Elizabeth Entin

WTF Just Happened

Will: [00:00:00] W T F just happened. Have you ever found yourself asking yourself that question? Well, today's guest has, in fact, she does that on a regular basis while diving into evidence of the afterlife in psychic mediums. As an atheist,

if you're one of those that questions the validity behind Life after death claims being thrown around in our space all the time, then this is a show for you. Because once she started looking into all the evidence as an atheist mind, She says that she was blown away.

You don't wanna miss this one. Welcome to the Skeptic Meta Physicians.

[00:01:00]

Will: Today's story is called The Butterfly. A man found a cocoon from a butterfly. One day, a small opening appeared, so he sat and watched the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through that little hole until suddenly it stopped making any progress and looked like it was. So the man decided to help the butterfly.

He took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon so the butterfly could then emerge easily. Although it had a swollen body in small shriveled wings, the man didn't think anything of it and sat there waiting for the wings to enlarge to support the butterfly. But that never happened.

The butterfly spent the rest of its life [00:02:00] unable to fly. Crawling around with tiny wings and a swollen body, despite the kind heart of the man, he didn't understand that the restricting cocoon and the struggle needed by the butterfly to get itself through this small opening were God's way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings to prepare itself for flying.

Once it was out of the co. Well, the moral this story fits in so well. When it comes to all things spiritual, you see our struggles in life develop our strengths. Without struggles, we never grow and never get stronger. So it's important for us to tackle challenges on our own and be grateful for them because every challenge prepares us with the ability to handle the results.

 Welcome to the Skeptic Meta Physicians. Liz Entin began examining evidence of an [00:03:00] afterlife and anything paranormal in 2015 following the passing of her father.

Well, what She was still considers herself skeptical and an atheist. The evidence that she found just blew her away. She's the author of WTF, just Happened, A sciencey, skeptic, exploration of grief, healing, and evidence of an afterlife, and the host of the podcast of the same name, all about the afterlife.

No. Woo on that show folks, just plain talk, which you know I love. Obviously you've noticed that I am without Karen today. Sadly, she had a family obligation to attend to, so it's just me, but I am super well accompanied by Elizabeth Entin. Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to talk with you today. Me

Will: too, cuz what you talking about is right up my alley, first and foremost. , I know that you say that you are an atheist, right? So let's set the table.

By atheist you mean you don't believe in anything or c can you quantify that?

Elizabeth: Sure. I guess when I say atheist, I think of atheist as believing in God and religion, and I've never seen [00:04:00] any evidence of God and I've just, I don't think God has anything to do with an afterlife. I think the two are completely separate and.

I, I think the alignment that so many people have, to me ju I respect it, but from a factual perspective it doesn't make any sense.

Will: I'm really curious to hear how you put the two together, cuz like this space that we're in is spiritual world that we're, that we're both in. It's really tied.

Talks a lot about the afterlife, but it talks a lot about God or the universe or energies or whatever it is. so you don't think there's a, if I'm, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't think that there's a white guy in a robe sitting on a throne in heaven? Right. So I

Elizabeth: would find that probably the least likely explanation of everything that could happen.

Yeah. Am I gonna say factually? But to me that is, I can't think of anything less like,

Will: Alright, so then what, and I'm sorry we're deviating a little bit, but then what is your thought? Like how, what is God for you if anything?

Elizabeth: Nothing. I, [00:05:00] I mean, I have researched a lot of the studies done on afterlife, survival of consciousness, non-local consciousness, and I just don't see how from, I think it's more of a physics-based answer.

in some form that we don't know yet. Similar probably to how the cloud works. Ideally, something along the lines of the Large Hadron Collider, significantly more advanced, will be able to figure out what the substance is, but that our subs, that our consciousness is not created by brain, but downloaded by a brain and continues in some form.

Is much more answered by particle physics than some mo singular moral consciousness that somewhat resembles a human. That according to religion, has, I would say, has questionable morals anyway. Mm-hmm. and that that created all this, it just seems just irrelevant to the [00:06:00] topic, and there's just a ton of data that our consciousness.

Is non-local and downloaded. And to me that question has nothing to do with, is there one singular huge consciousness that created it? Mm-hmm. So it's

Will: just, okay, so, really, I didn't mean to make this into a conversation about religion or anything like that, or, or the meaning of God, but the question has to be asked, do you then some people.

That maybe we are all parts of God, right? I don't want hesitate to use that word in your presence, but, and when we die, when we pass on, we, reconnect. We become one once again. So then my question would be, first two questions. One is that your thought process? , and if so, then what is it that we join up with?

Elizabeth: Okay, so first, no, my thought process is not that at all. Okay. It was just, I can go into, originally my original thought that even got me down this path, obviously, aside from grief, was. at this point I thought [00:07:00] consciousness was created by our brain neurons, and this will lead into answering your question.

No worries. And so if that happened once to create a me or to create my dad, why could it not happen again? Not necessarily me. Again, not related to karma, but just another set of brain neurons, coincidentally creating another human. And it would get to be so. I would experience, not as Liz, but just some being somebody else, as if Y you guys have the experience of being another person.

And to me, the only other thought I thought was possible at that point was complete oblation. So even though I wouldn't have any memories of my life, it was better than never having an experience of consciousness again. Part two of my thought was, is there any possibility in any way, shape, or form? That some of the memories have carried over.

So I Googled that. I found researchers at the University of Virginia, Dr. Jim Tucker and his [00:08:00] mentor, who's since passed away. Dr. Ian Stevenson, factually studying cases of kids with past life memories and getting. Accurate results after matching up with data. So my whole approach afterwards, I found Weybridge with Dr.

Julie Beisel, more researchers at the University of Virginia, such as Dr. Bruce Grayson, who studied near death experiences, and Dr. Ed Kelly and Dr. Emily Kelly, who also studies, you know, mediumship and significantly others. So I just. Came from it. Not is there a God, but is there any data that shows that in some way, shape, or form, We can get information, mediums can get information that's factual and accurate that they could not know by normal means, such as Googling cold reading.

And if so, if all of this is happening from accurate, medium breedings cases of kids with past life memories that check out near death experiences, [00:09:00] this stuff and occurrences and results are absolutely not explicable if our consciousness is created by brain neurons and when we die. That's it. So what answers does that leave?

Mm-hmm. . And this data just, there's no answer in. Explanation of consciousness created by a brain that could explain for this, I sincerely hope it's survival of consciousness. I, I think that's the most likely explanation. And where is it we go, I, I don't know. I wish I knew. Mediums will say it's just this place of complete love.

I have, personally, I don't like the word belief because none of this is based on belief. It's based on actual data. and per some personal experiences I've had such as getting medium readings. as well as some other weird things, but we'll

Will: talk about all those, but go ahead. Oh

Elizabeth: yeah, yeah. This is just pure data, so I don't like to have belief in anything.

I'm sure I'm human. We all have beliefs. That's impossible to say. I don't carry beliefs, but I [00:10:00] try not to. And so where do we go? So maybe this is my coming in with a little bit of belief. Mediums say that when we pass away, it's all love. And then we come here to learn. I have a hard time believing. that in this other dimension, it's all perfect, pure love with the conflict we have here.

So I'm guessing they might experience it that way. If I could guess, and again, this isn't data, this is now I am going a little into the belief realm, but my guess is they experience that or people experience near death experiences as all love because like, you know, let's say you, you've. Traveling for a month and haven't talked to your parents or your spouse and you reach them, you're able to call them and you're like, oh my God, I love you so much.

You're not arguing over stupid things or irritated with each other and or you come back from a, you know, I'm thinking about like the first time you go to college and you come home and see your parents like that first day. , and I'm sure there're exceptions, but overall, that first day, [00:11:00] you just feel so like the warmth and love.

So near death experiences is the very first moment of crossing over. So that's my guess,

Will: I can totally see and hear the scientists skeptic still hiding under your words, and yet you're trying to. in your mind, make things make sense from a pragmatic point of view.

And I love that. Cause that's, that's been me the entire time. up, up until, well, this show has changed some things for me. Let's just put it that way. But what I find interesting is that, there's a thought that science, there's no way that science can explain some of these things because our scientific instruments stop just short of being able to measure into this other realm that we apparently go to once we pass over.

So really there's no way to truly know. What's out there without actually experiencing ourselves. And yet it seems that a lot of us who are pragmatic in mindset and scientific and skeptical, we tend to try to still [00:12:00] wrap it around. Some form of scientific explanation for something that may or may not have a scientific basis, uh, to talk specifically about your love comment, that makes perfect sense, right?

As you come back from a long trip and all of a sudden you see your family for the first time and oh my God, you are reminded of how much you missed them and how much you love them. And then maybe that passes, maybe it. Most of the time it passes a little bit, right? The intensity is not as strong.

but then there's another school of thought that says that we are love, that that is our true nature. We are love. So when we pass over, we're actually becoming who we truly are, which is love. At which point. might we experience complete love with abandoned while we're out there?

Elizabeth: I would think it would get boring. I do think in one sense, and again, this is more getting into philosophy than evidence, I do think. are in essence love in the sense that's when we thrive. But I don't think, I mean, we just can't say that's all there is to us.

It seems like too much [00:13:00] wishful thinking because of how there are people who are really cruel people. We can't deny that there's conflict. So I just, where does that come from? I don't, I don't think. I think it would just be going against facts to say there's only love is, is that the ideal? Is that maybe what our goal is to strive towards?

Yes, and I, I mean, I hope we just cross over and there's only love, but maybe it's like 30 dimensions down the line, because otherwise I don't think like a Hitler or, I mean, I, I'll leave politics out of it, but you know. Yeah, good idea. People, you know, would be here, so you know, like, yeah. Hitler, serial killers.

Right,

Will: right. I understand what you're saying and I think we could debate this for a long time because I love it. and I love playing devil's advocate, very quickly though. I will say that could it not be that when we are in that other plane, we are perfection, right? We are love. We are. Goodness incarnate.

It's [00:14:00] the act of coming into the three-dimensional space where we forget our divinity, that then we become human and have the foibles that come along with being human from the get. There's a school of thought that says that we are perfect, but when we come here and become human, That's when our foibles take over.

Our emotions uh, are greed, right? There's no doubt, especially in this country, that greed is a, a runaway problem right now. And I think greed is the cause of a lot of our challenges and our, and our problems. And I think that's because of the human condition when we all just want more and more and more.

Right? That com, that competitive edge we've had since we were cavemen,

Elizabeth: right? I. I, I sincerely hope we just all cross over and it's pure love. But I think from what we know with near death experiences, and I think this would make the most sense, is that you go through the life review where you're really accountable.

My thought that we. , and again, philosophy, not evidence, aside from the Life [00:15:00] review, my thought that it would just, we're all just so advanced and then come here, it's kind of like, well, why come here? Maybe this is the step working towards that, but. Pure love. I mean, who wouldn't want that to be true? I mean, I will be really happy if that's the case, right?

But my guess is maybe we're much more like, much more advanced than what we are here, and it's the next step. But I still do think there's some form of progress. I mean, you look at a two year old and they have a fight and they're screaming at each other and like, Someone takes the one, two year old's toy and they throw like sand in the sandbox in the other's face.

And to them grownups, and again, I'm sure there's exceptions of really horrible traumatic homes, but overall grownups look like they don't have problems because you never see. adults act that way. Mm. But then there's this whole other slew of problems. And when you look back at being two, [00:16:00] you're like, oh my God, I can't believe I was upset that my friend wanted to play with my teddy bear for two minutes and my parents made me give it to them for five minutes to learn to share.

And that was the worst thing that ever happened. And, and you just have such a perspective. But then we have a whole other slew of problems that a two year old wouldn't necessarily understand. And we deal with them in a way a two year old wouldn't observe. And if I could guess, it's something like that as you progress.

But I also think if you just are that and you come here, why come here? Although I, yeah, I mean, I, I definitely don't think it's like, I, I think evil's more complex than just evil, but I do think there are, Energy's probably, I don't know, but I, I have a hard time believing it's just love and then only just human that makes things, some things horrible.

I think we have to look at the facts that, yeah, there is a lot of horrible and a lot of good, and both are true. And what is the source? We don't, [00:17:00] we don't know yet, but I do think we have an innate drive to move towards love and good. I mean, feeling. anger and hatred, and it's a horrible feeling. We don't, but I mean, this would be, this is such a complicated philosophy.

It's, this is all just kind of playing with ideas. I can't say absolutely

Will: this, and that's really what we're doing here, right? We're, I love the debate over dinner, over coffee, over drink, trying bean devil's outta kid and trying to come up, look at it in the philosophical point of view from different perspectives.

This is all great, but I do want to talk specifically about, you and how you got into this space because the death of a loved one is always incredibly traumatic and some people handle it in different ways. You ran in the direction of is their life after death because I assume you wanted to make contact in some way, where others might have just.

Oh, well, he's gone and moved on to life. You, dove into it in a, in a very [00:18:00] sincere way. So I want to hear about that before we move forward.

Elizabeth: Yeah. There's two tears, I think to that. First, just the innate, like shattering grief and just that moment of desperation, actually even before I thought.

and found the research of Dr. Jim Tucker. My immediate thought was, is there a way to turn back time? Since I started find, you know, reading about time, Einstein's theory of time relativity and so much of science fiction has ended up coming true. Is there some scientific way to turn back time and you know, one day.

5,000 years, someone will know to go back and get my dad at this day when medicine is significantly better. And so that was just the very first thought. I didn't necessarily think it was practical, but it was sort of the only place I knew to go to. Sure. And so f from there, I was so fascinated [00:19:00] by what I discovered about the relativity of time and just our universe.

significantly different than we perceive. And then finding the research of Dr. Jim Tucker, and it became a combination of this desperation to see my dad again and not just think he was obliterated facing my own mortality and other one's mortality. And just this mind blown fascination. Like if you have never, ever thought something like an afterlife was.

Aside from my guess one, it was very little like my parents told me some like, cute story of heaven. Then I was a little older and they're like, yeah, that was like, you can think of that like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Pretty much, you know, that was obviously what you tell a child about death and just it was both.

If this was to be true, this was the most remarkable thing I could imagine in terms of happiness. I, I just, it, it would be unfathomable and. , some existential dread would change. [00:20:00] And scientifically just the most fascinating thing, like think about when you're a child and you have, I guess, this fantasy of finding a hidden door to a whole new secret world.

It's like this is existing. This is the most amazing scientific breakthrough. The only thing that I could imagine equating that. opening a door and walking into a room and seeing colors I'd never seen before, or finding out you can space travel to a new galaxy with different species, not even our solar system like a whole or galaxy, a whole new galaxy.

And just it had that level of fascination as well as, you know, uh, Realistic hope I could see my dad and could continue living myself. So that was what just propelled me and propelled me. And I can go more into what I learned and experienced if you'd like. Yeah,

Will: no, we're definitely gonna do that. just to clarify, your, dad passed away from medical complic.

Elizabeth: Yes. Yeah, he had a stroke.

Will: Gotcha. Yep. Uh, when you mentioned, someone traveling back in time and, [00:21:00] getting the medicine that he needed to make himself better, I wanted to clarify that. I assume that the way that you. Researched whether there was life after death, was by reaching out to psychic mediums and things like that to see if you can make contact.

Were you able, let's just jump to the spoiler. Were you able to make contact with your dad?

Elizabeth: I am pretty sure I did. Yes. And well, there you go. Yeah. After doing. The research, it took me reading multiple studies and books and up to quintuple blinded studies on mediumship and taking some classes at the Rhine Education Center and all this logical science.

And reading it and reading it. Before I was like, maybe this might sound crazy, but maybe I'll go get a medium reading and. go to some medium workshops. And my very first reading, she knew stuff she could not have known, and I hide my identity. I wasn't like, hi, I'm Elizabeth Entin, here's my credit card, here's my email and phone number.

Like, here's my birthdate. . Yes, [00:22:00] yes, exactly. I'm like, you're good. None of that. And she was amazing. And I was. What the fuck? Like I just saw someone in front of my face defy the laws of the universe and it was like I had chills. She brought in my dad, my grandma, my cat. I was just like, wow. Amazed. And I just remember leaving and turning to my mom, who I made come out with me.

But she went into a different room. She wouldn't come in cause she thinks this is all crazy, but I just turned to her and I was like, oh my God. I, I think this is real. . And from there I was just so amazed. I'm like, I have to see this again. So I started getting other medium readings and it was across the board.

Like I had quite a few where I think they were very honest hearted, but not very accurate. I had a couple that I was like, huh, they are completely full of shit and they know it. and . I, yeah. And then I had more that I was. , like they could not have known this. And it just, [00:23:00] it's so profound. It's just like, yeah, like getting or getting to travel inter galactically, getting to jump into another dimension of strength theory.

It's, it's just, I, I also have the words for how profound it was. Yeah.

Will: Now, have you had any experience with the, organization? Studies, near death experiences.

Elizabeth: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've read a lot. I've gone to some of their Zoom talk, especially when we were all in quarantine. I, I think really highly of them.

Mm-hmm.

Will: great. So because there's a, there are a lot of scientifically minded people in that organization, which is great. And you have the people who are just full on in the woo. . and I find it, I find it really interesting to see the dynamic between that whole group when they're in the same room together.

But how long did it take from the time that your father passed when you started looking into this in earnest to the moment you got your psychic medium reading that went Whoa, and changed your, your whole world. How long was that that you researched for? Let's

Elizabeth: see. I got my [00:24:00] first reading. She said I had to wait till, um, my dad, obviously I didn't tell her it was my dad, so my person, I had to wait until they had been gone at least six months.

That's what this specific woman said. And I was on another woman's wait list who has a really long wait list. So I ended up going to her workshops, but I hadn't gotten a reading with her. So this woman, I guess, let's see, it was maybe about. eight months after my research, after I served my research that I got my first reading.

Okay.

Will: Yeah, it's interesting. Six months. I hadn't heard that number. I think I heard 40 days. It has to be as, but I did hear it's consistent with you have to wait a certain amount of time. Cause I guess, uh, the soul has to get acclimated or whatever it is, you know. ,

Elizabeth: different mediums say different things. I have come to think it's just a personal choice of the mediums and each one, I'm sure has their own reasons for saying it.

But I've heard of mediums have someone come in that day and you know, I, I maybe. . I mean, I'm gonna, I, I [00:25:00] don't know. I'd have to respect and ask why each one says what they say, but there isn't a consistency in that. I have heard some say. They will say that because they, just having someone that early in grief, they don't feel comfortable with, they feel the person needs to process, they feel could be dangerous for them psychologically.

Like they're not therapists, they. They don't wanna take them on that early, but each one, so some of them it's ethics, some of them maybe the way. Vibrations work. They can't connect until six months. I, I don't specifically know for each of them, but they all have different reasons.

Will: It's interesting to hear you talk because you are very pragmatic in lots of different ways, and you just talked about different vibrations that different people have that doesn't really fit into that box, so I am fascinated.

, in the time between 2015 that your dad passed and now it's almost 10 years, have you seen a progression.

Of change in you as you go? Are you starting to lean more towards maybe some more woo material, [00:26:00] or is this, are you very much sticking to, this is scientific and there's nothing that can change my mind?

Elizabeth: I guess you can say I'm leaning more towards what people could call Woo. But with a non W approach, I think, I guess I'll go to, things have happened that.

Would be defined as woo, but I think in the end, everything's science sciences just explains the facts of how things work. So I think this happened. There's a quote actually by Dr. Ian Stevenson. I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying it happened. So these things are happening and I won't use, I think when you get into Woo, there's using somewhat of unrelatable words and an acceptance that, of just belief and you're not trying to get sure data.

So I will say this happened. I, I don't know what to say about it, but, and this aspect, verified. , this was just a weird thing that happened that wasn't verifiable. I would like to [00:27:00] try to verify it more and the, and putting it all together using factual language. Like an example, just quickly, let's say you take an out of body experience and someone goes out, and to me the word vibration isn't so woo because.

it's, it's literally a physi, a physical experience. And even spring we'll talk, yeah. Mm-hmm. . So when I've tried to do out-of-body exercises, I will feel waves. And what is literally vibrations? Like what would be used a vibration If you took, like you stood on like a vibrating plate, you know, which is one of the gym classes I go to, and I'll feel them a few feet above my body.

I can't say I know why I am doing that. So if you take a. For lack of a better word, approach, you'd say I rose into the energetic field and I felt like the angels around me. And if you were to take a science-based approach, I say I felt as if there were waves and vibrations and if the nerves of my body instead of ending at my skin, ended a few [00:28:00] feet above and that's just the facts, I'm not adding more to it.

Sure. So what's the next step? The next step is to try to get better and see if I can go verify something. If it really is out of body, can I actually start to get senses? physiological senses like eyesight and smell, and some people have, and they report back then with facts that they were able to verify.

So that is the next step. So I just try to report only the facts and not draw conclusions beyond what I can get from actual facts. Sure.

Will: Makes perfect sense. So I gotta ask the question, have you yourself been able to leave your.

Elizabeth: I don't know. Wow. So I is that leaving my body when I feel sensations a few feet above?

Maybe I've had dreams of going to places that were then verified, but what is that? Is that leaving my body? Is that remote viewing, which I guess ob out of body experiences, OBEs versus remote [00:29:00] viewing, could be described as. I come over to your place and I say, oh, you have that blue cup on your table, versus we're here on video, which would more be remote viewing.

Oh, I see that blue cup on your table. Hmm. We don't know enough how it works. Um, I was, I, was I out of body? Was I getting, was I remote viewing? Was I psychically reading somebody and then saw what they saw? I don't know, but some people will say they've gone out of body, and I will believe them when they have been able to verify where they felt they were out of body.

They felt sensations. They visited somebody and they came or a place and came back with information about that person or place, and other people have even verified and said, oh, you know, maybe they visit someone who's a medium and they'll say, oh, I saw you. You were outta body at this time. And so. Um, corroborates.

Will: So then I've gotta bring it back to something you said earlier. it's fascinating to think about it. Is it something [00:30:00] that someone psychically or whatever, e s p wise telepathy received that information from you and then you spit it out saying this, that, whatever could the psychic medium instead of actual having contact with your dearly departed dad ha gotten the information from you psychically and, and that's what you.

Elizabeth: That is one of the big questions. I actually, Dr. Julie Baisil, I have a few responses to this. First of all, there's actual studies done by Weybridge to test for just that, and they, for example, one of the ways they do highly blinded readings where the sitter goes and takes down all the information, the sitter's, the one who the medium's giving the information to.

and the sitter doesn't actually know, or I guess they're called a proxy sitter. They actually don't know who the reading is for. It's one of the vol experimenters out of, I don't know what pool or volunteer [00:31:00] experimenters. And so how could the medium be reading the mind of that sitter? , so then it, I mean, you can look at Wind Bridge for all the details, but essentially the person they're giving the information to does not know.

Then there's another part where mediums have given me information I thought was wrong, and said no and clarified with somebody else. One of my friends who's a medium, this was early in our friendship, so she didn't know much about me. My uncle had recently passed. I purposely did not tell her that, and.

She, I'd always thought he was over six feet. He was under six feet and really angry about it. But I was never told that , I didn't even know. Cause I guess he was really angry when he was young. And my parents were older parents, so like by the time he was older, middle age when I was born, he wasn't talking about it anymore.

But she kept saying, , he's just under six feet. And I kept saying no, and it was true. And that's not the only bit of information. And this has come up repeatedly in research. Now, another part of this is mediums. I've gotta [00:32:00] trust them at this point. Ones who've passed scientific studies, ones I know, I mean, I wouldn't go on this alone, but they say it feels completely different.

They'll describe it in different ways. And now there's one medium who even says, see psychic information on one. She like sees a screen and sees psychic information on the left and mediumship on the right. I might have reversed it, but she's also studied highly by scientists. She's had her brain scanned and the brain activity in psychic versus medium shows up differently.

That's fascinating.

Will: That's amazing.

Elizabeth: Absolutely insane, right? .

Will: Quick question. I, I do wanna talk to you about the book and the podcast, but before we do that, a question jumps into my mind because you've had a lot of experience with psychic mediums. I know there's a, an organization out there that certifies mediums.

we had him on the show. to talk about, his organization that he founded, which I think is fantastic. And they actually have a website where, here the mediums that are actually certified as, and they have to be 100%. Uh, they can't have no a single thing. Wrong. Um, incorrect,

Elizabeth: wrong. That's [00:33:00] not true actually.

Yeah. So I'm very involved with Forever Family Foundation. Bob and his late wife, Fran Ginsburg were my absent mentors. Losing Fran was just the, the one of the hardest things.

Will: So you knew, you knew

Elizabeth: fan then? I knew her very well. She,

Will: oh my God, that's amazing. Cuz when we met Bob, he, she had already passed. .

Elizabeth: Oh yeah, yeah.

Fran is like, I, I feel, yeah, she was probably one of the most important people in my life the past few years. So yes, I know Fran very, very well. And so I

Will: was, I was under the impression they had to be a hundred percent accurate. That's not, that's not the case. That

Elizabeth: is not the case. No medium is a hundred percent accurate.

They have to be significantly. Accurate beyond the odds of chance. So for example, let's say, I'll take a random person. Let's say they lost their grandmother, Sarah, who, so a media might sit there and say S name like Sarah. Sarah, I'm getting a grandmother. Energy on your mother's side. She died at 70. [00:34:00] She was a high school teacher.

had two children and she rode horses, and that's really significant. Let's say she was not a high school teacher and that was wrong. Let's say she did not ride horses, but the rest is really impressive. Mm-hmm. . So that would still be a medium who passed. Okay. And.

Will: Well, then I apologize to all those psychic mediums who I call the fraud in my mind when they were wrong with one thing.

Sorry about that. .

Elizabeth: Right. But if they're getting moose wrong or if mediums are getting everything right, but it's general. Like you have a 30 year old sitting in front of you and you're like, , you've had a lot of loss. Like you don't have any living great-grandparents, am I right? And you know, you know, I see that your great-grandmother, they sort of were in like that traditional role and your grand great-grandfather was too, like the male female.

And they had a lot of children. Like there's things that just can be very general generation based and some of those mediums might be frauds, they might be really. Genuine [00:35:00] hearted and just get very general information and maybe just haven't pushed themselves to be evidential because maybe their clients haven't required it, or maybe they're just things are popping.

Like I've taken mediumship classes and I have sat with people and given them readings and information is coming into my head. , that's really logical because I'm doing the assignment, I'm told to say what comes into my head and I know it's coming logically and I'm trying to be right to do the assignment cause I'm there, but, and the person depending who some.

are either, maybe they're very believe or I'm in the class with them and they're trying to be respectful and they're like, no, you're good. You're getting everything right. I'm like, right, but of course I am, because there's just certain things any person can deduce, right?

Will: Sure, sure. So, so then do you think that the only way to make sure you don't get swindled by a psychic medium who's just full of.

is to just not give them any information at all to be a complete blank slate? Or are there other ways that you can make sure that that doesn't happen to you?

Elizabeth: Ah, I [00:36:00] think the, this is the, it's a fine line. In the beginning I was just like, give nothing. I think, I think it's a fine line. I think take protocols, give, you know, hide your identity as much as you can, and when you're sitting there,

I mean, you have to let them lead a little bit, but you can afterwards be like, Ooh, that was, you're like, bullshit. But I, I think if they, if they come in and the first thing they say is, yeah, it really become, it is a fine line because I did it too much of like not say anything in the beginning and scientific studies, like again, if you read like the research studies like Dr.

Julie Baisley, you literally give nothing but. . You know, when you're getting a reading, it's a fine line. You know, don't give them more than they ask for. If they're like, I'm getting like a T name. Don't be like, oh my God, that's my brother. I can't believe he's here. And he, I miss him so much. We were twins.

Don't do [00:37:00] that. Say yes and then. , if they ask for a little more, if they're like, oh, I'm just not getting, like he, I'm getting, he's your generation, but not more than that. Mm-hmm. , then you can say, okay, he was my twin. Or if you are understanding something and they're not, and you can tell, like, let's say, I don't know, like you.

Okay. So I'm giving a little of my own evidence here, but you know, okay, , let's, like, I got a few readings in the beginning where her, like, was your dad. Either hurting a fire or was he a fireman? Who's the fireman? Why am I hearing fire? Fire Island was really important in our family as a child. So maybe they're seeing a fire because you are working with humans.

So my dad would be like, fire, tell our fire island fire. So they're just seeing fire because fire Island isn't any place they've ever heard of or been, let's say. So they're saying, so he's giving [00:38:00] them, because it's not. . It's not as good as speaking on the phone. It's just not. If it was, we wouldn't be questioning and studying.

If there was an afterlife, we would know. Right? So , if you just sit there and are so literal that you say no, then you're not gonna get more. But if you say in that situation, I would say, yeah, there's some, I'd be like, not exactly, but fire makes sense. Can you give me a little more? And if they're like, oh, I can't, you know, can.

give me some more then. Yeah. And then I'd say Fire Island is where I went in the summers. And maybe suddenly they're like, oh my God, yes, that's it. That feels right. And I believe they say that feels right because they're certified by Forever Family or Win Bridge, and they got quite a bit of information.

Like they got the letter of my dad. They don't always get the names. Sometimes they do, they. like aspects of his personality and hobbies and work. So I'm like, okay, I already trust them, right? And so then if I say, yes, it was Fire Island, my reading's gonna be that much better. Cause they're like, oh, that makes so much sense.

Let's see if we can go further with [00:39:00] that. And maybe they get a specific memory from that. I think if, if you're not doing what I'm doing where it's really about research and you go to a medium, And they're not getting accurate information and they're trying to ask you a lot of questions cuz I've experienced this and it's clear they're fishing.

I will start to let them lead and go along with it because it helps my research. If I really just wanted this reading for itself and I wasn't, getting readings regularly and exploring. You have a right to say, uh, don't wait like 40 minutes in, but after like five or 10 minutes, if everything you're saying is no, an ethical medium will say, and this has happened to me, I'm so sorry.

I am not getting the information that you need. I'm not connecting. We can end this now and I'll refund you, or Sure. You can come back in like a month and we'll, if it's better. So, It. It's all a balance. I think the way to prevent getting swindled, don't give your information [00:40:00] upfront. Don't make it googleable.

Then once you're there, it's really, it's refined and just don't pour out. Just try to say yes no, or maybe until there's a reason to say anything more than that, and then the other. This is just one of the things I. . Some people might just be like, well, obviously, but nevertheless, people when when you're in grief or trauma, your brains don't work the same way.

So there is, it is absolutely not on you if this has happened to you in any way, but some mediums which had happened to me, told me I had like bad energy around me and she sold $300 candles. That would cure it. Anyone who tries to upsell do not do. Do not. That doesn't mean if they, you know, if you're like, oh, you know, I would love to try a psychic reading again then, or another reading or something.

Yeah, you're gonna have to pay for another service, but they don't try to sell up any upsell. Right. You have

Will: a curse on your family and I can lift it for $500. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth: Exactly. Exactly. . So,

Will: do want to talk to you about your book and [00:41:00] your podcast. W t. just happened. Yes.

w Was the book first or was the podcast first, which came first? Chicken or the egg

Elizabeth: book came way first. The podcast, the book came first was, yes, the podcast was one of those. I am lonely and alone in my room and isolated over quarantine. I wanna talk to more people. Let me just try a podcast. It'll be fun.

And then it was so much more fun than I expected and I taught myself podcast editing. It was just ended. Being an addition, but now something I would definitely wanna stick with.

Will: we've talked all this time about afterlife and psychic mediums, is that what you're showing your book is about or is it, does it dive a little bit more into other things?

So

Elizabeth: my book. It's another one's gonna be coming out some point and it's soon-ish. Um, so my book, which I'll explain why I said that. So my book starts with from when my father first got really sick to about maybe like, two [00:42:00] to three years after and all the research I had done in my experiences. Then it talks some, it doesn't start with mediums, it starts with like the research of Dr.

Jim Tucker and it starts with kind of how I'm like, oh my God, what the fuck? Like there actually seems to be some evidence, but there has to be a catch. And it starts with how I keep going further and further with this and then start meeting the people and. You know, so much has happened since the book ended.

So much like I've gotten, this is just, you know, when I first start meeting the people and now I've gotten to know them really well and have participated with them in experiments and done so much more, and that's what I'm gonna go into next. So this is just the whole journey. What the fuck just happened of how I went from thinking there was zero chance of an afterlife to all these very logical.

reasons to why I completely changed my mind and it's actually like light and funny and talks about like all the awkward things that happened along the way. Like just, yeah, as I met the mediums and tried to like see if they were cheating and [00:43:00] like one who's one of my best friends now, like thought I was like, A journalist trying to expose him,

So just really silly things happened along the way. And Fran's a big part of the book

Will: too. So that was in the book then. So then you, do you suggest you read the book first and then listen to the podcast? Or can you jump into the podcast now without having had to read the book? You can jump

Elizabeth: into the podcast.

So the podcast is a variety, it's psychic mediums. I have like, it's Parapsychologists, like Lloyd Arbok. It's a few people who've had personal experiences who verify it. It's near death researchers, it's. Um, I have someone who's an animal communicator, so just it, it's across the board. I even have a someone, the episode hasn't come out yet, but I'm gonna have ones on out of body.

I'm gonna have ones on remote viewing. I'm gonna have a skeptic who's like a professional skeptic who doesn't think any of this is true. And we just get into a really interesting conversation, and that's actually one of my favorite episodes. Not ready yet, but it's just really. Interesting.

Will: This sounds [00:44:00] fascinating. I can't believe that the time has flown so fast. if someone wanted to, listen to your show or reach out to you, we're gonna add for sure those links in our show notes. But what's the best way for someone to reach you if they are so inclined?

Elizabeth: You can go to my website, which is WTF just happened.net cuz that links to everything. You can link to my email, you can link to Amazon where you can buy my book. You can link to all the places that you can listen to my podcast or on all the, all the usual places. You can find me on my social media like Instagram and TikTok.

A lot of people reach out to me on Instagram. You can email me and all that's right on my website for you to find.

Will: Perfect. That's awesome. This has been so much fun. We're definitely gonna add those links. I'm gonna connect with you offline because, any friend of Bob's is a friend of mine for sure.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much.

Great.

Will: Now, uh, we have a lot more skeptic organization coming up, so stay with us. We'll be right back.[00:45:00] back.

 We got what might be our new favorite review. This one is from John Messina and he gave us a five star review and titled it Great show for those both new and old metaphysics. He goes on to say, I'm a U P S driver for work. So I've got a lot of podcast listening time because of this. I've listened to almost every episode of the.

Amazing. I've believed in many, if not all of the modalities spoken about on this podcast for as long as I can remember. I felt weird for just having a knowing about certain things, and because of my knowing, I always understood that the world around me wasn't ready to talk about this stuff yet. So I kept it to myself forever.

The chameleon. I still explored it well into my twenties, diving into all sorts of mind expanding situations and discussions with the few I knew would hear and understand me. Then I got a [00:46:00] big boy job and that part of me stayed on the back burner for a few years. Well, a few months back I was craving something that could connect to on all.

Enter the skeptic Meta Physicians after a brief Google search for best podcast that discussed metaphysics. I found this podcast at the top of the list, so naturally I dove in. Fast forward about four months and I only have a couple of episodes left. My only complaint is that there isn't a few hundred more episodes, but I guess I should have paced myself better.

So that's on me. You guys are great. Thank you for all the work you do and making me feel. And folks, that's the most important part of this review. This last sentence re says, thank you for making me feel normal. And that's a very powerful statement because a lot of us. Our feeling, this seismic shift that is happening in our world right now.

And a lot of us are feeling weird and off, and this stuff, [00:47:00] if it speaks to us, if it resonates with us, sometimes it makes us feel like we are not right, like we're not normal. And the fact that we're diving into these things, we're showcasing, we're showing that these things, these feelings are coming in inside of you.

They're. We're all real normal people going through an awakening on mass. So if you've ever felt abnormal, then take it from John. This is a show for you because we are normalizing these conversations. John, thank you. Thank you so much for sending us this review and for being such an avid listener of our show.

We can't do it without you, and we really appreciate. If you would like to hear your review read on the air, just go to skeptic meta physicians.com. You can either leave us a review there written or go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review written there. Or if you prefer to speak your mind, you can always go to skeptic meta [00:48:00] physicians.com.

Hit the leave us a voicemail tab and record us a voicemail that we will possibly air on the show. Thanks again, John, and thank you for listening to the.

 Well, thanks for coming along on this journey Discovery with us. We'd love to continue our conversation with you on our website at SkepticMetaphysician.com, or on Facebook and Instagram under Skeptic Metaphysician Podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from hearing the messages we're sharing on the show, do them and us a favor and share the show with them.

It will help get the word out about us, and it may just change someone's life for the. And if you're listening to this on the radio and you missed something, well, not to worry. All of our shows, including this one, can be found at SkepticMetaphysician.com where you can also watch the videos or you can send us an email or voicemail directly from the site.

We absolutely love feedback and would appreciate hearing from you. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this episode as much as we [00:49:00] have. That's all for now. We'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Meta Physicians. Until then, take.