Reiki is a Japanese form of alternative medicine called energy healing. Reiki practitioners use a technique called palm healing or hands-on healing through which a "universal energy" is said to be transferred through the palms of the practitioner to...
[00:00:00]Welcome friends to this edition of the skeptic metaphysician. Excited to have you with us on this journey of discovery. I've talked a lot about finding concrete proof that there's something out there other than this three-dimensional physical world we live in. I've also mentioned all the things I've taken a close look at in order to find that so-called proof I've never been able to leave my body or channel my long lost relatives and never been able to read anyone's mind or make something happen simply because I wanted it to no matter what incantation I muttered.
I had to go a long way to find something that actually helped me [00:01:00] feel that there was something different going on. There is one thing that cracked that skeptical door open just a bit. Now, please don't roll your eyes. Like I did the first time I heard of this practice, but it's none other than energy healing, specifically the practice of Reiki healing.
Today's guest is a practitioner of this type of healing, and I'm thrilled to have the chance to speak with her on the show. She comes to us all the way from England. Please welcome Heather Finch to the skeptical metaphysician. Heather. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Thanks.
Absolute pleasure. Now full disclosure, we've known each other for many, many years that we haven't spoken for many, many years. Yes, definitely. It's been a very long time, but but we did grow up together. We did, we did, we went to the same town, so, but, and we've been able to maintain contact through the social medias of the world.
So, That's a plus for them, but that's not going to stop me from asking the tough question, so get ready for it. Okay. [00:02:00] All right. So my first question for let's let's level set for everybody that's listening, what exactly is Reiki healing? Well, probably the first thing to explain is what is Reiki itself?
Because healing, I think we all understand, but Reiki. Is the universal life force energy that surrounds everything. It's the space in between the atoms it's, it's, it's out there. It's everywhere. You can't see it just like radio waves, just like television waves. You can't see what it is, but that energy is surrounding us.
And that sounds really hokey. And I did roll my eyes when I first heard about Reiki. But It is there. And once you experience it, you just go. Yeah. Okay. I understand it. And you can experience it either by having somebody give you a Reiki healing, where they would put their hands on you and they can do it in different many different ways.
Just a quick Reiki healing is [00:03:00] okay. You've just injured your knee, all Al that hurts. And you put your hands on your knee and breathe in. And when you're breathing out, you're thinking about sending all the positive, universal life force energy, the Reiki around you to that knee. I believe it or not at works.
And even people who haven't been attuned can do this, but we seem to have lost our way in our Western world these days. And we don't believe that it can happen. So we, we put our hands on our knee and we go, it's not working. And it's because we've been brought up to believe that it can't work. And once, and it's not a belief thing either.
It's because it's almost like once you get to a stage where you can do it, if you've not believed you can, all of a sudden do it. It's, it's weird. How, how people start to be able to do Reiki, but you can do it without being tuned, but being attuned helps to fine tune you in like a, a radio [00:04:00] antenna. So I've heard it.
Described as, as kind of aligning your vibrational rate with the rate of the energy that you feel. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And, and I understand that that people who experienced Reiki, both the practitioner and the receiver, do you feel it in physical, tangible form? Can you talk to us a little bit about what someone could expect to feel if they Reiki treatment.
Well, you could be one of the people who feels absolutely nothing when they're receiving Reiki treatment and that does happen. And that doesn't mean that the Reiki is not working. What it means is that you're not open to feeling that energy. But if you did have the benefit of being able to feel that Reiki energy coming in and doing the healing.
It can feel a number of different ways. It depends on what's being healed as there's a number of factors. It's the person who's giving it, the person who's receiving it, the why's and the where's and all that. the most [00:05:00] universal feeling is kind of like tingling or like little needles, kind of, pinpricks on your finger and fingers or whatever, wherever they're giving you the Reiki.
You can just feel this electricity. It's it's just a tiny little it's extra energy in that area and different people experience that differently. You can have warmth or you can have cold it. Doesn't it. A lot of people, I should say the majority of people will say that it is a warm feeling, that people who are giving Reiki, their hands can get raving hot, and you put that on somebody's shoulder or knee.
And they're like, Whoa, that's really, really warm. And so it's not just the person giving the Reiki that thinks that it's the person receiving it. That is a common. A common feeling when somebody is receiving Reiki and what is Reiki good for? I mean, is it good for headaches or is it good for emotional alignment or what is it good for?
Brilliant [00:06:00] for headaches and, and actually dental issues in the sense, like, if you have a toothache, Reiki is fabulous for a sake, but it's actually good for. Just about everything in the sense that it helps with physical aches and pains, it helps with emotional and it helps with spiritual. So it helps from the perspective of balancing those three things.
A lot of us are on this spiritual journey of, you know, what's out there. What's why are we here? All of that. I think that's what. Reiki has helped me a lot with because I needed a purpose in life. It's not that Reiki has given me a purpose, but it's helped me to be able to relax into. What has ended up kind of being my purpose and I'm quite happy now, which is the emotional aspect of things.
No, I'm not always happy. Nobody's always happy, but I'm much more balanced than I used to be before [00:07:00] I found Reiki. And I do feel that the Reiki itself is what has balanced my emotional turmoil maybe for lack of a better word. Yeah. I've had aches and pains. And, and the Reiki is amazing. I have really bad neck problems, or I should say had, is probably the best thing to say.
And because I learned how to do Reiki and I started giving myself Reiki on my neck on a nightly basis. I did it continuously for months, and I had really bad problems for years before that. I haven't had to pay attention to that probably in about six years now. And. There's no other explanation for why it has gone away.
I do feel it sometimes every once in a while. Oh, I'm getting a bit stiff and I can feel that pain coming back. I just give myself a bit of Reiki, a couple of nights in a row. Boom. It's gone. It's hard to explain, but it does work. Right. So for the practitioner themselves do they feel anything? I mean, th th when when you channel the energy [00:08:00] into.
I dunno if you call them patients or the receivers, but do they feel anything as they're doing it does. I mean, cause apparently it goes through, through you and out of your hands. So you're basically you're channeling the energy, correct? Exactly what happens. You breathe in the Reiki energy around you, although from a.
Technical point of view, but it's not really technical. It comes down in through your crown chakra and then you channel it out through your hands, but it's just a matter of thinking of breathing the Reiki and then you breathe out through your hands and after practice, it becomes quite easy to have that feeling.
The feeling that I get. For myself is just tingling on the palms of my hands. Sometimes I'll put my hands on somebody. That's got a physical ailments usually, and my hands get really, really cold read and I do suffer from Raynaud's a little bit. But. I mean, they get just bone cold while I'm doing that.
And I think, I don't know what that's all about, but that's okay. It must be what [00:09:00] that person needs. And then I go and do somebody else to healing for what I would have thought was the same type of a problem. And my hands are hot and it's not something I'm doing. I have no control over what's happening.
It is the universal life force energy, which is always positive and always intelligent and, Oh, it's intelligent and always positive. It does what that person's highest good needs. I'm not doing it. It's the, it's the Reiki energy doing it. Right. So the skeptic will say, it may just be your mind. Focusing on different experiences and, and making your physical sensations come to be.
Yeah, well, that's what the skeptic is going to say. And that's the whole placebo effect aspect of things that people go, Oh, well, you know, you think something's happening. And so therefore it does. And, and all of that, there have been scientific studies. Numerous scientistic studies about Reiki in particular, although [00:10:00] related energy healing aspects.
Or, and I'll get into that in a minute or Dr. Emoto, which is a similar realm as well. And if you do a compilation of those studies, Reiki has a significant effect of significant positive effect on hailing. That is better than a placebo. So Reiki is better than a placebo based on compiling the studies.
Yes. There are some studies that say that Reiki has had no effect whatsoever. There are some studies that say that Reiki has the same effect as placebos, but there are more scientific studies that say that Reiki actually has a significant effect. And these are scientifically done. They're not at universities, et cetera.
Right, right. It's not willing, Heather kind of just asking me, she knows far more than redo. Yeah. Not just anecdotal. I'm although some of the anecdotal I can't think of the right word, but stories because it's anecdotal are so [00:11:00] amazing. But for me, I needed what I would call scientific proof. And that was something when I got interested in Reiki myself, I thought, well, I bet this is all about the hooey, as I say.
And and it's just my brain making me think that it works. So I did go out and I read different books that were on the scientific aspect of things. Right. I don't remember what books I read at this point, because it was 10 years ago that I got attuned to level one. And that's when I did this search.
But what I do remember is the studies that Dr Emoto did and all it's a little bit going away from Reiki, but it's the same idea as Reiki. He did experiments with plants. And water I guess, I guess I'll do the plants one, because I think that shows more what happens and, and he would stand at a plant and he had three different plants.
He did [00:12:00] Reiki and he would put his hands towards the plant and they were three very. And it w it wasn't just three plants. He did this with numerous, but we'll do three sections of plants at one set of plants.
He would send the Reiki, energy and love. That was the, the emotion that he focused on was love. And you can just think, okay. When someone thinks of love, there's lots of positive vibrations that person's vibration is, is raised to a particular. Level. And so he did that for those than another group. He did nothing.
He just sat there thinking about what was for dinner and it just didn't really think about anything positive or negative. And then he had another group of plants that he would stand and send negative energy and he would just hate them. He just, I hate these things. These are awful and be angry and he lowered his vibration while he was.
Paying attention to these plants by basically putting his hands forward to them. [00:13:00] And over time, the plants that were loved flourished, they, they just, they grew beautifully. They did, they, they burst open and flowers and they grew fast, but they, they grew very healthily. The plants that didn't have nothing done to them at all.
They performed on average what they were behind. The ones that had the love and the plants that had the hate died, they didn't all die, but they just withered and they just weren't good at all. And he's not the only one that had done these kinds of studies. There are other people that have done these kinds of studies with plants.
And to me, that is proof of what Reiki is because Reiki is taking something positive. It's the positive universal life force energy, all around us. And channeling that to the person that's receiving the healing or to yourself, because actually I'm not, I have to get this in here. Reiki is actually all about healing yourself.
[00:14:00] It's great that we can give Reiki healing to other people. And that's what invites people to learn about Reiki because they receive a hand and they go, Oh, Hey, that felt really nice. And actually that really made a big difference. And then they might go down a journey of learning about Reiki themselves, but Reiki is the whole principles behind it are about helping yourself and that's then when you can be better to help other people.
Right. That makes any sense. It does. It makes perfect sense. It brings up two questions, but let me do the talk about the plants for a second first and foremost, in, in that sense, I mean, that really kind of takes away the argument about, well, it's just your mind feeling, the things you want to feel, because, I mean, although there has been some research, the book that the secret life of plants talks about the fact that plants actually feel and think and all that kind of stuff, at the crux of it plants, aren't thinking, Oh, here, someone's going to send me some energy and I'm going to feel something and I'm going to feel better.
Right. [00:15:00] So it kind of takes away that argument. Right. On the other side the, the thing about the self-healing through Reiki it's an interesting question because Yeah, no, I guess I need to disclose to the audience. I am a Reiki practitioner myself on Reiki level two, and they're never quite made to master, but that's a whole other story.
But so when I first embarked on the journey of learning Reiki we talked about this before we started recording. I didn't feel anything at all until the moment I was attuned at that point, when I came back and started using Reiki, I immediately felt the rush of energy. Flowing through my hands.
I, there was no question whatsoever. My mind, there was something physical happening to my body that was based in the non-physical world. So I understand all that. Having said that I can take away a headache like nobody's business, but only in other people. If I have a headache and I try to give myself a, he just doesn't seem to work.
So I don't know if there's a mental block or there's something going on, but, but for some reason it doesn't, I don't feel that benefit. The only benefit [00:16:00] that I do get when I give Reiki to somebody is a sense of peace, a sense of calm that comes with the act of me putting hands on someone.
And it's not really putting hands on someone, you know, physically touching them that right. You don't have to actually physically touch somebody to give them a Reiki healing. Some people prefer to be fully hands-on and some people like to be a little bit away from them. And I'll even mention the fact that you don't have to be in the same room with them, but that's a whole, maybe another conversation.
Yeah. That was really good. He's a Reiki level two. Right? So level one right now. Exactly.
So you don't have to touch them, but the, the person receiving the healing will tend to prefer knowing where you are. So having that sense of touch gives them a sense of security and, and relaxing that, Oh, I know where they are. I know what they're doing since this is a bit of a strange thing to the person receiving [00:17:00] generally.
But also for the person giving the, the healing. Generally, I I'd say majority of people who I've met, who are Reiki practitioners. They like to actually get a hold of their people and, and put their hands on because there is something to human touch. And I think that the two of them together kind of accelerate the whole process.
There's healing and human touch. In general. We know that from the fact that babies who are not held. Will often die. If there's, there's no mother child connection there or just human child connection. So human touch in itself is very powerful, but the Reiki energy is also very powerful. So you put the two together and I think that's why touching is, is a much nicer thing.
Sure. What you can heal from three inches away from the person's body. It's and there's, and it, and it will work just as well. It depends on. The person who's doing the healing as to which they feel most. Okay. [00:18:00] And that's why, I guess a lot of massage therapists nowadays are starting to implement Reiki practices within their massage, because it's so beneficial in that sense.
I'm sorry. So it, it just so happens that you mentioned people feel it as vibration. Some people feel it as heat or cold. I believe other people feel it as pressure. Give you a specific example? I was given my wife, I forgotten if it's her ankle or her leg or something along those lines, she had a pain in there.
So she asked me to give her Reiki. So I started first touching her, her leg, but then after a bit I lifted up and just kinda, it just felt better for me to provide that energy from maybe a couple of inches above. Yes. She turned after a while and said to me can you please don't press down so hard and that wasn't even touching her leg.
So it gives you an idea of, of how, how true and powerful this actually this stuff actually is, is it's amazing actually how you can feel something that's actually not even [00:19:00] necessarily physically. Happening within a healing. Sometimes I have had people who have been giving a healing too, and I'll be standing at their back, have my hands on their shoulders and be thinking about sending that Reiki in and.
I'll know exactly at which point that was because of music that's playing in the background or what have you. And then we'll talk to the person afterwards and they go, you know, when you put your hands on my lower back and this was going on with the music and I'm going. I didn't actually put my hands on your lower back.
Yes, exactly. But obviously that's where the Reiki needed to go. So even though my hands were on their shoulders, they felt it somewhere else on their body. And that always amazes me. Yeah. Well, you mentioned it was, it was intelligent, so it knows where to go, where it's needed the most. Yes. And because it's positive, it's always for the person's highest good.
And I know that's another thing that's hard to believe. But for me, that was very important because I [00:20:00] could be very wary of strange things. And so this is where Reiki, because it's positive, intelligent energy. That was why Reiki spoke to me and this molded speak to me, but you know what I mean, Reiki became my method of alternative healing.
Right. So is there is there someone that Reiki might not be good for? Well, they do say that if somebody has broken a bone, that in the first few days, you do not want to send them Reiki. And yes. If your intent is to heal that bone, probably not because it will accelerate. I don't know how or why, but once again, there are scientific studies.
If you want to research, go out and find them. But the, the Reiki energy can accelerate healing. And when you're healing a bone, it shouldn't be accelerated. It should actually heal at a very, at the pace that we normally heal it for a number of reasons. And it's actually in the Reiki manual that says, do not give somebody who has just broken a bone.
[00:21:00] Well, there there's an actual Reiki manual. There is a Reiki manual, like a how to, or a step-by-step. Yeah. Yes. And it has changed over the years. I'm hoping that, and I don't know, cause obviously Dr. Sui who invented Reiki or came up with how it all works. It's not that he invented it because it's the universal life force energy.
That's all around us, but he recognized it. He discovered it and recognized he was a 10 die Buddhist monk. He was a samurai. He lived in Japan and he developed these. I guess he was more of a theologian, I suppose. He was very interested in different religious practices. But he was also very interested in healing and health.
Not like healing from a Reiki perspective, but for people's wellbeing and because he had all those interests and that's why he was the person that they put this all down on paper, so to speak or started teaching it to other people who put it on paper. And. All of the [00:22:00] philosophies that he surrounded himself in while he was growing up.
as a young man made him aware of this energy, that's out there. And then he started to teach it to help people to learn how to heal themselves. And that's when they found that there was a benefit actually in healing others through it. So he wasn't teaching it. As a practitioner aspect, they hear you can do this and you'll be able to heal people.
That's not what he was trying to do. He was saying heal yourself. And this is how you can do it. And he, he put the abs and CS down of what it is. He explained what it is. And he put the Reiki principles together. There are five Reiki principles and they all start with just for today because it's about this moment.
Right now you can only live in this particular moment. This present moment. You can't do anything about anything in the past. You can't do anything about anything in the future. So Reiki wants to bring you back to the here and now just for today. Let go of anger just for today. Let go of worry just for [00:23:00] today.
Live your life. Honestly, there are other interpretations of this, but that's the one that I've chosen to work with. Just for today, be grateful and just for today, be kind to yourself and to others. And there was a pause there on purpose. So, and, and I do tend to go on about the principles, but if you think about the be grateful aspect, That one helps you with all the others.
So if you're going to focus on any of them, focus on, be grateful. So that's my recommendation falls in line with a lot of the other tenants of mindfulness and mental health wellbeing and things like that. But living in the moment accepting things as they are, that kind of thing, being grateful for the things that you have as opposed to coveting things that you don't, that kind of thing.
So. It's very much inline with that type of thought process, which is exciting to me because I'm always very much. Ensconced in that mental health world. Yes. You mentioned Dr. Usui. I [00:24:00] know that there's a couple of different versions of Reiki out there, but Dr. Usui seems to be the one that's I guess I don't want to say, I don't want to say the most accepted, but that's the one that I practiced.
I assume that this one that you do as well. Now you are at a Reiki master, correct? I don't master teacher there there's actually four different levels. But I know what happens is you think of three because you think, Oh, you get to master it and then, and then you're there. Right. But what happens is master is actually a level where you start your journey to being able to teach others.
Interesting. Okay. And then after you've been a master for some time, you then go and get attuned to the fourth level, which is to be able to become a teacher. And that's when you start being able to attune people to Reiki one, two, three, and master that's a very well kept secret because when I was showing it to Mike through my studies I mean, immediately, once I got my first attunement for Ricky one, I knew right away, I was going to [00:25:00] follow this to Reiki to, there was no question in my mind.
So it went to make it to, I also was looking to become a master, but Circumstances being what they were or wasn't able to accomplish it. But my understanding was as soon as I became a master, I'd be able to teach other folks in the tune. Other folks I'm getting now that that's not the case, you can be Reiki master in the sense that there's two parts to the master teaching and they can't happen right away that you can't take part one of master.
On Monday of this week and part two next week on Monday, there has to be time spent in between because you're on a journey and you're learning things. And as much that's similar to other Reiki levels as well. I remember having to wait a period of time between Reiki one, Reiki two, and then there was a year's distance between Reiki two and a mat.
My, my initial master. So how long is the, is the It's not a defined time in this sentence. But we wouldn't recommend somebody jumping so quickly that they would try to do anything. I personally don't [00:26:00] think anyone should do it before six months. I think there should be a six month gap in between, but there are some people who are, are much better at these things, in, in learning aspects and the fact that some people are intuitively.
Very good healers and teachers bought Reiki. Shouldn't be about, Ooh, I want to be able to, you know, train other people and earn money off this. That's not what Reiki is all about, right? Yes. That's what happened when it came to the West and it became a monetized thing, but that's not really that, that doesn't actually.
Work with Reiki, right? There has to be Reiki. It's about learning to heal yourself and then helping others to learn, to heal themselves. And yes, in order to do that, people need to earn a living, but it's not about, I want to use this as my way of earning a living. It needs to be a journey that you take because you care about what you're doing.
Right. And if that happens to then become a way to. Adds to your way of living or [00:27:00] earning a living then that's great, but anybody who's going at it to just to earn money. That's where the process is going to break down because they're not doing it for the right reasons. Right? One of the seven spiritual laws to success is give more as you give freely without expecting anything back that's when the universe returns it in kind three, three times or whatever it is.
So that falls within the lines of what that, that talks about. the purpose of Reiki is to, is to help others and help yourself, but help others. And, and in the course of helping others, Perhaps things might happen that would benefit you in the long run because you're doing good things on the universe and it's coming back and, and vice versa, because I think what happens with a lot of people who find Reiki is that last principle that I mentioned just for today, be kind to yourself.
And others. There's a pause in that because we are all raised in the Western world to help others. And that's great. I think, I mean, that's a wonderful thing and we should [00:28:00] be trying to help others. what we get, sometimes we get people who are stressed out because they're not looking at their own needs and health and welfare because they're just doing things for other people.
And we also get the martyrs. I. I'm guilty of that. And I try to steer myself away and I'm getting better at it. Basically there's we want to do for other people because it makes us feel good, you know, but there's, there's a wonderful benefit to helping other people, which you can stress yourself out and you cannot pour from an empty cup as they say.
So what Reiki is doing is it's saying, hold on, take care of yourself. Learn how to be healthy, not, not take care of yourself and go out and party all the time and enjoy your life that way, which is fun when you're young and that's great. And you need to do some of that to take care of yourself, but you need to balance your life and take care of your health and wellbeing.
Once you learn to do that and balance everything, then. You're in a place where you can help other people and you actually make a [00:29:00] difference for those people, as opposed to running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to help somebody. And then you go. Well that obviously didn't help them at all, but it's because you're not really in a position to help them at that point.
Right, right. Help yourself before you help others fight. Right. However, that line goes. So something to that effect. So if someone was interested in first experiencing Reiki and then possibly moving on to becoming a practitioner, how would you suggest someone go about that? I'd ask around to anybody. I mean, if you feel comfortable, obviously ask around to your friends and family, and if anybody has had a Reiki healing from anyone, and if, if there's someone that says, Oh yeah, you know, it was really good.
I really enjoyed that. And you feel like it use your own intuition, you, you know, does it sound like it would work for you then go and do that? If you don't have somebody in your friends and family realm that know anything about Reiki at all? Then [00:30:00] there is the Reiki organization. And I'm trying to think, cause there's a bunch of different Reiki organizations.
is it reiki.org? But basically there'll be Regular reiki.org. Okay. And from there, they should have different things where you'd be able to find somebody in your area that will do Reiki, or you can just do an internet search for Reiki in my area. Don't go with the first one.
You see, look for a few and see which one talks to you because everybody's different. And everybody's going to, you know, if you just go for the first one, it may not be the right one for you. Hmm. Right. And Al w we'll go ahead and put the, a couple of different resources in the show notes for this episode.
So if you're interested in learning more about Reiki, her experiencing the effects of Reiki, or even learning how to become a practitioner there'll be some links in our show notes. You can follow. I could talk about this all day, unfortunately. That's not something that we can either one of us can do.
So, I do want to thank you so much for taking the time out of your day, all the way. What five hours ahead of us to [00:31:00] come talk to me. You're very welcome. It's wonderful to be able to share what Reiki is all about. And maybe somebody will be interested in learning about Reiki and maybe it will help them.
And that's that's for me at this point in my life. What Reiki is about is sharing it with others. And if someone wanted to reach out to you specifically, is that something that you welcome or is that something that okay. It is, I have a Facebook page. Well, I now say I have a Facebook page. It's actually a group that started when, and that's where I found Reiki 10 years ago.
And it's called Cheshire Reiki development on Facebook. Yeah. And actually I'll, I'll let you put it up as a link later or something. But. Basically through that Facebook page, I'm now running the group. And that was a unanimous choice of the group. Oddly enough, last year, right before we went into lockdown and I'm the one with the technology.
So it worked out really well. Great. We have a free Facebook [00:32:00] page and people can join up and watch a Reiki development group. Facebook live on Wednesday nights. If they choose to. And just learn a little bit more about Reiki. You don't have to know anything about it. You can just, you know, log in and take a look at it.
You can watch the old videos. If you're not interested in watching a live. Wow. That's great. Well, Heather, thank you so much for coming on again. Really appreciate it. You've given us a whole lot of information. That's all great information. I myself will attest to the fact that it is a very powerful thing to follow.
So if you are looking for that that tangible proof something that you can feel touch and and experienced yourself I would urge you to consider. Looking for someone that is a Reiki practitioner to give you that, that session. I know they also have some, some places have Reiki circles where several practitioners everyone's sitting in a, in a circle and pictures go behind you and they take turns just kind of going through and giving people, raking, things like that.
So that there's that option as well. I know I went through a metaphysical bookstore to find that, but certainly I'm [00:33:00] sure That the the links in our show notes, we'll be able to provide you some information on, on that sense. So, all right, Heather, thank you so much for being on the show once again, really appreciate it.
And thank you for having me. Absolutely hope you'll come back. Oh, definitely. Thanks. Thank you. And that is our segment of the skeptic metaphysician want to thank each and every one of you for taking the time out of your day to listen to us, if there's anything we can do to help.
On any thing, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. Our information is in the show notes as well, and we look forward to having you join us again on the next edition of the skeptic metaphysician. Bye bye now .