Is Microdosing the Missing Link in Your Spiritual Awakening?

Kayse Gehret Audio Version

Will & Karen: [00:00:00] Alright. Karen? Yes. Pop quiz. Oh boy. Today's guest is diving into a topic that we have never covered on the show before. Wanna guess? No. You don't wanna guess? I need, I need more hints. Just tell me a guess. Something we've never covered before. There's, well, that's the thing.

Okay. We always learn about things we didn't know existed. So how can I, you know, guess. Okay. I'll give you a hint. Okay. It's not crystal grids. Okay. Yep. It's not galactic soul origins either. Okay. No, and no, we're not decoding ancient Laurian light codes this week either. All right. Those none of those were my guesses.

No, I'm shocked. Alright. Try this. Okay. What if something is small as a speck of dust? Mm-hmm. Could open the doors to emotional healing, spiritual alignment, and divine connection. Ooh, that just reminded me of the little Prince. Remember that movie? I, it, it's, and it goes up to the, it actually a book that I used to love when I was a kid.

Yeah. Saw movie. Well, okay. That would be cool though. Okay, ready? Here. Here's a, we've got a lot of dust in the house. Well, here's a bigger hint, right? It involves [00:01:00] mushrooms. Okay. But not the kind you saute with garlic. Okay. I, you know, I, I didn't think so. Uhhuh, we are finally talking about micro producing tiny amounts of psychedelics that can lead to big breakthroughs in healing, self discovery, and maybe.

Even less road rage during that pesky mercury retrograde thing that goes on, right? These are tiny doses of earth grown psychedelics that are helping people remember who they truly are. Wow. Yeah. Our guest is the founder of Microdosing for Healing, and she's built an entire global community to help people ease into this powerful practice without the need for tie dye or starting a drum circle.

Do you think it'd help you remember to take the trash out? We can ask her that. Uh, okay guys, get ready. 'cause your spirit guides might just be whispering. It's time. It's time. The skeptic positions starts now.

[00:02:00]

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Will & Karen: Hey there. I'm will. And I'm Karen, and welcome back to an eye-opening, mind expanding episode of the Skeptic Meditation. Today's guest is a trailblazer in the conscious use of sacred plant medicine.

Ooh, Kayse Gehret is a founder of Microdosing for Healing, a global community and immersive education platform that's dedicated to introducing the practice of microdosing in an intentional, grounded, and heart-centered way. We're not talking about party drug here. Right now, since 2020, she's guided thousands of seekers from curious beginners to spiritual explorers through the powerful intersection of earth medicine, emotional healing, and personal transformation.

Through her [00:05:00] community immersive programs and her podcast, Casey helps demystify psychedelic practice and reconnect us to ancient healing wisdom that's as relevant today as ever. So get ready to journey inward because this conversation might just change your perspective. One microdose at a time. Welcome to the show, Kayse Gehret.

How are you doing today?

Kayse: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Will & Karen: Well, we're happy to have you here. I'm especially excited because this is a topic that I really wanted to dive into for a long time. Mm-hmm. But we've not had the opportunity, we've not found the right person to talk through it with you with. So with you on the show, now we have the opportunity because.

Truth be told, we are clueless about this, right? We know about psilocybin, we know about ayahuasca, we know about all that kinda stuff. But microdosing is a, is a world that we've been curious about, but scared about at the same time too, right? 'cause we don't wanna trip per se, but we've heard so many great things about it.

So can you explain to us just what exactly are we talking about when we say microdosing?

Kayse: [00:06:00] Absolutely. And first of all, you are my people. I was you. That's everybody I work with is like, do I have to trip? I'm kind of curious and I'm drawn, but I'm afraid to kind of go on a psychedelic

Will & Karen: Mm-hmm.

Kayse: So, absolutely. So microdosing is the taking the small sub perceptual dose. It's usually about one 10th the dose of what a high dose journey would be.

And so while you're going to feel definite benefits and effects, you're not going to feel altered and trippy. Anyway, that's the number one thing. A lot of people I work with, they're like, I am running a company. I have a bunch of kids. I can't be off my game ever. Like, I mean, I, I have to be on all the time and quickly when people start microdosing.

With mushrooms, they realize they're not off their game. They're actually more on their game than they have ever been. So it's very much the opposite of, say like a, an alcohol experience, if you will, that kind of dulls you and takes you outside of yourself. Microdosing kind of brings you back more into yourself and your [00:07:00] instincts.

Will & Karen: So, so you're not losing control at all? Uh, like, like with alcohol or any other type of drug actually, um, it, it's actually gaining, giving you more control

Kayse: Yes,

Will & Karen: 'cause you're more connected.

Kayse: you're more connected, you're more intuitive, you're more articulate, you're more focused. You're almost better at most things.

Will & Karen: So you're not having any of that like thrown up and just blacking out or anything like that?

Kayse: no, certainly not.

Will & Karen: okay. No hangover the next day.

Kayse: Nope.

Will & Karen: Uh, okay. All

Kayse: Actually most people, the vast majority of people I have worked with have actually stopped drinking almost. Nearly, and some altogether.

Will & Karen: wow. Why? Because I I didn't mean it to sound like that. That sounded really weird. That sounded bad. No, I don't mean like, I'm just saying like the true story, like when we go out for a drink, it's, it's a, it's a social thing. It's, it's how, how would microdosing replace that?

Kayse: great question. So as soon as I started during 20 20, 20 21, it was, I was in California at the time. We were locked down for ages there. And so a lot of people in my initial groups were coming with the intention. Among other things they said, you know, I have been kind of hitting the [00:08:00] wine a little too hard here in lockdown,

just right.

And so what they found was when they started microdosing though, they would, a few weeks, months later, they would go, wow, I haven't had a drink. Like, I just kind of stopped effortlessly. Drinking, or they moved from drinking four or five times a week to once or twice a month when they went out to dinner to enjoy a great meal or a special occasion.

They didn't need the social lubricant of alcohol. They didn't need the relaxation and the sedation of alcohol, nor did they, did they need the escape as much anymore. So you can drink. Absolutely. But I find now that I've witnessed so many people, I think what happens is. Mushrooms have a very high, bright resonance.

Like people practice, they get lighter, they get more radiant, they look younger, they feel better, and it's this cascading effect

Will & Karen: just, you just won Karen over? I look younger because I'm

like, she sold.

Kayse: talk

Will & Karen: I'll take the whole box now.

Kayse: that reaction a lot. A lot. And [00:09:00] alcohol is actually really aging. It's very dense. It kind of brings you down. And so it feels good at the time, but a lot of people find as they get back in touch with their body and their own energy, and I'll have a drink of glass of wine once in a while because I love wine, but I'll feel it in my body for the next few days.

So I still love it once in a while, but to drink, you know, several times a week, a lot of people find that they just let it go very easily.

Will & Karen: So now, are they replacing the alcohol with the microdosing, or is it just you microdose for a little while and then from then you stop and never really care for

alcohol

Kayse: kind of happens naturally. It's interesting. It's, they lose, um, it's just kind of effortless, but the friction, when there is a friction, it becomes, alcohol was such a part of their social life. They're like, it's so strange to be out at a dinner party or a cocktail party and walk around with my sparkling water.

Um, but they don't find the need to have like a social lubricant anymore. It just kind of the, the social conditioning of dating and not drinking or going to

Will & Karen: Be like, oh, what's wrong? You know?

Yeah. Right. Why are you not drinking? So, exactly. Are you an alcohol fan? Yeah. In fact, it [00:10:00] reminds me when we first met, why you were on a on a no alcohol kick for a while. Oh, and I was like, uhoh. Red flag. Red flag. That's funny, isn't it? Yeah. So, but I guess what I'm asking is, is alcohol replaced with mushrooms?

Like do you have to continually do the microdosing?

Kayse: question. Great question. Yes. This is another big thing that it's very mind bending for people to get their head around because we're so steeped in pharmaceutical culture. So a lot of people think that if they're, especially if they're on medications now and they're microdosing to say, going off their antidepressants and they're going to micro dose instead.

It bends people's minds because the goal of microdosing is to actually not to need to microdose anymore. It's not to need anything anymore. So you only do it for as long as you feel is appropriate, but when you stop microdosing, it's like you don't give up all of the benefits that you gained. So, for example, to use myself as an example, I had a grand mal seizure disorder that I had since I was a kid.

I was medicated for it [00:11:00] with heavy pharmaceuticals. Never quite got at what was underneath. You know, they never really diagnosed me with

Will & Karen: Mm-hmm.

Kayse: and I did a lot of different healing modalities in my life, but that helped them. But they never completely went away. When I started microdosing mushrooms, they stopped immediately, and I've never had one since.

And after a while when I decided to stop microdosing, I was really curious if they would come back and they never

Will & Karen: They never came back. Wow.

Kayse: And so microdosing, it's really not the mushrooms that are doing something to you. It's the mushrooms are tapping into your innate healing potential, helping you reset your nervous system, and so a whole host of symptoms heal and you don't need to keep relying on the mushrooms to maintain.

Will & Karen: when you did this, did you do it every day? You'd microdosed every day for how long?

Kayse: Yes. So when I was first starting out, I didn't know anybody that was doing it other than the person that introduced me to it.

Will & Karen: Mm-hmm.

Kayse: so we were just kind of like winging it. And at the time there was kind of one book that mentioned it briefly once Dr. James Fadiman had mentioned it [00:12:00] in his book, psychedelic Explorers Guide.

There was a little bit about microdosing. Um, and so I just kind of. Winged it, and I was practicing five days a week, so I would dose five days a week and take two days off. And so that's a really common one for our community typically starts at four, four or five days a week dosing when they first start out.

Will & Karen: And then for how many weeks would you say you did it?

Kayse: We start for six weeks and it's so interesting, like some people have so many benefits come in the first six weeks. They have just an amazing, incredible, really transformative experience that's just jam packed in the first six weeks. Other people, it takes a bit longer and it'll take really three to four months to kinda really get connected with the medicine field benefits.

That's about the standard. And then we kind of reassess, take a break and see if they wanna continue or not.

Will & Karen: so we're not talking years. We're talking months.

Kayse: Oh, no.

Will & Karen: That's amazing. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so you talk about how it, it taps you into your own healing. So asking for a friend, could this help? Hi, I'm the friend. Well, could this help with symptoms of perimenopause or menopause? Hi, I am not the friend.

Kayse: That is the most popular question right now. I get that so many [00:13:00] times a week. Yes, because so many women are one talking about it more.

Will & Karen: Yes.

Finally.

Kayse: is very in. It's very in right now, and so more people feel comfortable talking about it, and so they're coming in and saying, I'm having all of these symptoms.

What is hormones? And what is, what can mushrooms help? Right? Where do I need hormone therapy and where can mushrooms help? So there's a whole host of things, particularly mood and inflammation. Like we can get a lot of weird inflammation in perimenopause, like muscle aches, frozen shoulder body aches, chronic fatigue that mushrooms can support a lot.

And also mood

Will & Karen: check,

Kayse: mood. Mood swings

Will & Karen: The mood swings aren't, that's the, that's the only thing that my friend, no, no, not, doesn't complained about that mood swing, but everything else, right. The body aches, fatigue that Yeah. Muscle aches. Yep. Uh, okay. That Well, just an aside, I think the reason it's so popular now, it's because the women that are currently going through it are like the Gen Xers and you know, we were loud.

So loud then. Still loud now. I was just gonna say still loud. Still loud, not we're loud. Right. Uh, I don't have FOMO at all. Okay, so let's talk about men's stuff like menopause. So give a [00:14:00] perfect example. Mm-hmm. Uh, if, if a man has prostate issues or, uh, asking for a friend. Asking for a friend, right? Uh, could something like this be a benefit to that?

High blood pressure, things like that.

Kayse: Mm-hmm. I would say the number one thing I hear from men, and it's a whole array of things, but consistently is men sleep better. That's the big

Will & Karen: okay.

I'm in. And

Kayse: a lot,

Will & Karen: so it is your friend, right? Yeah.

Kayse: a lot of

Will & Karen: I mean, might me my friend.

Kayse: a lot of men don't feel anxiety. The way women feel anxiety, it just manifests differently. And for a lot of men, they're very anxious, but they're not aware of it because it comes out in their sleep is highly disordered, so they can't get deep sleep, they can't get REM sleep, they don't dream, and they're also waking up through the night.

When you start microdosing, it resets your nervous system. And all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, I slept more than seven hours. I'm having dreams. And so a lot of men are just really stoked to sleep again, and they get very, very fascinated by the fact that they're dreaming again for the first time since they were kids.

Will & Karen: would love to sleep. I would love for you to sleep. That's that's a great point though. 'cause you, I do, I feel the anxiety. I know that I, and when I wake up, I wake up all like, because I'm all tensed up from the anxiety and things like that. So. Okay. Getting closer to [00:15:00] being like on board, so, so you know the saying if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Mm. Are there any negative side effects or things that would, you know, be maybe a deterrent for someone who's interested in trying this?

Kayse: That's a great question and it is like it's so broad. The benefits are so broad. It is kind of like, who is this not for? Is this not for the main contraindication? That I have seen is if somebody is in kind of pinned at the top of their emotional spectrum. So for example, they just lost a loved one and they're in deep grief, or a spouse just left them and they're kind of in a peak phase of emotionality.

Sometimes mushrooms can often bring things up and out that are ready to be healed in a really powerful, beautiful way, but. We have to make sure we're resourced and have the network and support, and we're resourced enough within ourselves to handle the uprise in, in emotional capacity. And so if someone is kind of in the throes of deep grief, I'll oftentimes like, start with breath work, start with meditation, start with yoga, start with, um, just getting out in the morning, sun, connecting with [00:16:00] nature.

And then once you're kind of in a, in a place where you can hold emotion again. Um, then we'll start microdosing. But it's really, people's ability to feel

Will & Karen: Mm

Kayse: is, is one of the gauges.

Will & Karen: This would be something we should never do together at the same time. 'cause we are both so emotional feely people. If anything goes awry, it might actually be good. I

Kayse: It

Will & Karen: our daughter to camp and then try

Kayse: uh, it's actually most uncomfortable for people who can't feel.

Will & Karen: Oh, okay. Then we're good.

Kayse: very, repressed because they don't know, like they've never really allowed themselves to cry. They've never really allowed themselves to feel discomfort or anger. People who are very emotional are actually kind of better at it because you're fluent.

You're fluent with

Will & Karen: Oh, we would be genius level. Genius level. Uh, alright. Well I do want to dive into the, the spiritual aspects of it, but before we do that, one more question that I have because I'm, again, I have a friend who would be very interested in this answer. If someone's taking medications currently, is there anything that would prevent [00:17:00] that person from Microdosing while they're on the medication?

Will: We need to take a quick pause, but we'll be right back right after these messages.

Will: Hey there. Before we get to the interview, we have a small ask. See, we know that there are tons of options out there and having you decide to come along on our journey of discovery . Well, that's an absolute honor for us. But if you know someone who would benefit from hearing the messages that we are sharing on the show, well, why don't you do them and us a favor and share the show with them.

Take a moment right now and forward this episode to that person. That's it. Just a simple ask for your help in spreading the word. We'd appreciate it so much and see not only will it help get the word out about us, but it also might just change someone's life for the better. Hey, thanks for your help on this, and without further ado, let's get on to the interview.

Will & Karen: If someone's taking medications currently, [00:18:00] is there anything that would prevent that person from Microdosing while they're on the medication?

Kayse: Sometimes is the answer yes. So pharmaceuticals are not impossible, but they're another wrinkle and a variable. So we've had tons and tons of experience. We've always had people in our community on different pharmaceuticals, and we have professional support in our community and pharmacists who are trained both in Western pharma and are trained in psychedelics.

Who can offer consultation, and I'd love to give a little shout out to my colleague Kristen Spear. She's a pharmacologist. She's amazing. And she just created this amazing tool that people can go in and put their medications and their supplements and crosscheck it with psilocybin and get a report for just a few bucks against any medication they're on.

It's kind of a self, self-help kind of thing. Um, and that's at psychedelic interaction.com.

Will & Karen: Well that's fantastic.

great.

uh, okay. 'cause that was a big question of mine 'cause uh, my friend is very on a lot of medication and uh, you just never know.

Right. So I'm interested to find out what, how that works. Yeah. So let's dive into the spiritual. This is the skeptic when Ians after All right. In the show, a lot of people are listening know [00:19:00] about psilocybin as a way to broaden their spiritual growth. Right. How does microdosing compare to taking a goddess level, uh, type of dose, for example?

Kayse: Hmm. It's all a continuum in my experience. So a lot of people who are familiar with psychedelic journeys. Who were kind of the, the first wave of psychedelics back in the fifties and sixties, there wasn't a such thing as microdosing. Right. But if we got, if we dial back to antiquity, if we dial back to indigenous cultures, they all had a form of microdosing.

In the form of deta, in the, in the form of purification processes to get to the high dose experience. They had a rite of passage to go with that. We're just lacking that in our culture, especially in America. We wanna go, right? We go go big right from the start. So Microdosing really serves as this.

Beautiful introduction to connecting with the medicine. It's really gentle, it's soft, but you can start to understand how the medicine is [00:20:00] gonna speak to you and how spirit is going to speak to you, the spirit of the medicine. And so for example, some people are very mental people. They'll automatically notice shifts in their thinking.

They're like, it's, I'm just connecting the dots more. I'm seeing things from a different perspective. I'm having beautiful ideas that I didn't expect other people. It's very somatic, and the medicine works through their body and really expands their body. It's a lot of healing, physical health and healing.

Other people. It's very spiritual and mystical. From the start, they'll start microdosing and nature just comes alive. There's birds landing near them. Their pets can't get enough of them. The animal world just doesn't seem to have fear. For them anymore. Yeah. And so it's really fascinating to hold space for, especially groups of people, because the medicine is so unique to each person and it's, it gives me signs and clues and ultimately if they do journey down the road, how the medicine is gonna work with them in a high dose experience.

Are they gonna have a really mystical experience or is it gonna be a more somatic physical experience?

Will & Karen: so, so then. You would then, it sounds like [00:21:00] you would then recommend beginning microdosing with an eye towards taking a full on journey at some point in the future, because that's what's going to really open up your spiritual world, is that higher dosage. So this prepares you for that. I, um, um, imminent journey

Kayse: Yes, yes, Yes, I mean, some people just microdose and that's enough for them. Particularly. I work with a lot of people who are clairvoyants and psychics, and they're already really open. They have had meditation and practices for 40 contemporary practices for 40 years. They can really go pretty far with just microdosing, but even skeptics.

And people who never thought they would do a journey after they microdosed for a while, they really come to trust the experience and they're drawn. That was totally me. I thought I would never do a psychedelic journey, but after I had such a beautiful experience with microdosing, I was like, all right, maybe a little higher, maybe a little higher, a little

Will & Karen: Right, right.

Kayse: that was when I had big, big, big spiritual expansions was when I started to work at higher levels.

Yeah.

Will & Karen: So my only experience with psilocybin was in college.

Kayse: Mm-hmm.

Will & Karen: [00:22:00] And you know, those trips, that's not really meant for spiritual expansion. That's meant for like mentioned earlier, the party drug. Right? And I puked my guts out. So is there a way to do this without,

Kayse: Great question. Yes, yes. Um, there is, I mean, most people get sick, get nauseous due to the chitin in the actual mushroom. So some people, especially some people lack a digestive enzyme that can break down the mushroom to get to the psilocybin, to convert, to oc. So there's ways around that for people who get really, really nauseous from mushroom, the chitin in the mushroom, you can just use a different formulation.

Of Soin or, um, a finished medicine, meaning like a chocolate or a chew or something

Will & Karen: They have chocolate mushrooms now.

Kayse: Oh, they do, they have mushroom everything.

Will & Karen: Wow. Well, I mean we've, so we've had mushroom tea, but it's not the magic mushroom tea, right? No, it was like, uh, it's just like lion's mane or whatever. Turkey tail lion's mane. Right, right.

Kayse: And you could take psilocybin and a tea also.

Will & Karen: Okay. Because I think we like put it on a pizza or something and ate the pizza. Right.

Kayse: as you. As you do, as you do in

Will & Karen: Right, exactly. I think a friend of mine actually took it outta the bag and just started chewing it. And I tried it like, like it was a pungent taste. It was really difficult. So we put it on pieces just so [00:23:00] we didn't have to taste it. Right. I mean, I heard that's what people do. I would never do anything illegal.

Absolutely not. Never, never. So that brings up a question. That was my next question. Yes, go ahead. So the legality of it, is this something that. Is, is it legal? Is microdosing legal is going on a, a bigger spiritual journey with the full dosing legal?

Kayse: It depends where you

Will & Karen: Mm-hmm.

Kayse: which is so human of us to draw little lines on the earth and go, you can do it here, but you can't do it here and you can do it here. But this is where we, we are in our culture. So a couple states have, so in Colorado and Oregon have passed legislation statewide. That it is legal through legalized models and decriminalized other cities around the country have decriminalized in those cities.

It's happening. It's very mushroomy actually, the way it's happening. It's just mycelial. It's really hard to keep up with because different cities across the country are decriminalizing, but for the most part, it is still illegal, unfortunately, due to. Laws that were never relevant in the first place. It was classified psilocybin [00:24:00] was classified as a Schedule one drug, even though it meets none of the criteria to be a Schedule one drug.

Will & Karen: was back.

Kayse: political. And it was Nixon.

Will & Karen: I was just gonna say it was back in the Nixon administration that they trying to control those hippies. Uh, the, yeah, we, we've had a conversation with someone that, uh, came on to talk about, uh, MDMA. Yeah. And we, uh, we got a, a lot of education, a lot, a lot of knowledge from that conversation.

So, um, I assume it's similar to this, but Okay. We are sitting in a state where it is not. Currently legal anywhere. Are we hosed? Are we out of luck or is there any way that we can bend the rules a little bit?

Kayse: Yeah. I mean people, at the end of the day it's, it's you and a relationship with. How you approach it. It's your medicine, it's your spirit, it's religion. For some people, I mean for me it's, it truly is a, is a spiritual sacrament. It's, it's intricately linked to my spiritual practice. So there are some religious protections.

There are churches springing up. Some of them are kind of open source affiliations where you can [00:25:00] hold your practice underneath a divine sacrament and spiritual practice. So that's one avenue that people like I live in Florida, there are churches here that have set up to practice with mushrooms or ayahuasca.

In a church setting. Um, when I first started, we taught people to grow mushrooms at home. And so in almost every state, I think 48 out of the 50 states, you can't, you, you can buy a cultivation kit and then you buy spores separately. And there's only two states in the country where you can't legally buy psilocybin spores, which is interesting, right.

Will & Karen: am so curious which CSOs are.

Kayse: Idaho. Louisiana, I believe,

Will & Karen: That tracks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Kayse: right?

Will & Karen: right?

Kayse: Yes. So it's possible to grow, especially for microdosing, once you get the hang of cultivation at home. No, it's not legal in most of the countries, but it's personal use. There are some religious protections and hopefully, hopefully changing soon. I, right now we're in this very, um.

One step forward, two steps back, three steps forward, and so [00:26:00] hopefully soon people will recognize the value.

Will & Karen: and, and in large part, this type of what we're talking about is microdosing, right? That, that, that type of, the amount of medicine that is involved in microdosing is pretty decriminalized, right? In almost everywhere because it is such a low dosage or my just wishful thinking.

Kayse: Yes. I mean, I know hundreds and hundreds of of guides all over the country and world at this point, and the only time we've ever heard of someone, quote unquote, getting in trouble, it was almost by accident. It was like they were growing their mushrooms and there was a fire at their house when they were away.

And the fire department was like, what is this?

Will & Karen: Uh,

Kayse: What is this? And so it was kind of just accidents. So most of this law enforcement is not going out trying to. Criminalized people, especially for their own healing and their own spiritual practice. So again, I think it's just people are far ahead of where the law is and we're in such a strange place right now, especially here in the us.

Will & Karen: So when we're talking about microdosing, how much is it like, is it like half a mushroom? Like what? I'm just [00:27:00] curious. Like I'm very visual. Like, what does that look like? How much does that look like? I.

Kayse: It's small. It's small. And so when, when people are starting out, it's if they're growing their own, you get a little scale, you know, you dry them, dehydrate the mushrooms, and then have a scale. But there's a lot of medicine makers now out there that you have websites. They have religious protections, they have memberships where you can access safe sourcing online and have it shipped to you too that is already pre dosed.

So that way when you're first starting out, you're not kind of chopping and guessing and nibbling. Sometimes people are like, I nibble and I'm like, don't nibble. When you're first starting, you know what I nibble? Um, most people, I find the, the microdosing range in terms of the mushroom itself, it's usually between.

100 and 150 milligrams ish is a general starting point. I tend to a lot work with a lot of people that tend to be pretty open, who are kind of very spiritual people, creative people. I work with a lot of artists and they tend to need a much lower dose. So a lot of our community starts at like 50 milligrams or a hundred milligrams.

Will & Karen: Okay. And when you say, uh, pred dose or whatever, is it, they ship out like a [00:28:00] pill or something like that,

or,

Kayse: in the form of capsules, just because that's easy to grow your own mushrooms, and then they dehydrate them and grind them up and put them into capsules. Capsules are very common, but there's also tinctures. There's chocolate. There's gummies. There's tablets. Yeah. It depends on the medicine maker.

Will & Karen: I like tinctures. That just sounds cool. Tinctures. I feel like there's like an eye drop bottle somewhere. A dropper bottle and like a pestle, a ho and pestle. Yeah. I, I think, in fact, the last time I did a trip in college, we were, we would say the word tincture a lot. I think that's a good word.

Because it's fun to say to tincture, like it gives this aura. It's like, you know, a tincture, a capsule, you know, whatever. But a tincture, little bottles everywhere. Alright, well this is. I wanna temper, but this sounds kind of exciting, um, because, uh, it seems like, um, like, uh, an interesting way to dip your toe into this kind of thing, right?

I'm, I'm on like, Karen, I'm not really interested in tripping. Um, unless it's in a very controlled environment and it's for a very spiritual reason. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not old enough to not need to party anymore. Right. But all the benefits that you're talking about are exciting to me because not only does it give you health benefits, but also the spiritual aspect, which is what I'm most focused on right [00:29:00] now.

It, it's, it's kind of a cool entryway into something and there are people out there, excuse me, there are people out there who believe this kind of thing is a crutch. Like that, that spirituality should come from within and only from within. There's no need to bring anything in to make that move any faster.

What would you say to those folks that believe that this was just a crutch?

Kayse: I love that question because it comes up both in the scientific community and in from among psychiatrists and psychologists. That they're like, is this is a shortcut?

Will & Karen: Right,

Kayse: You know, we should need something outside of ourselves. And two, in the religious community too, they actually just published a fantastic piece by Michael Pollen around, um, psilocybin experiences from the religious community.

They brought together a bunch of like pastors and rabbis and had them trip

Will & Karen: Get outta here. Wow. I wanna be in that room

Kayse: It was

Will & Karen: just

watching.

Kayse: it was just published very recently in the last few days, and it was, it was incredible to read and it was kind of shifted. Their [00:30:00] mindset about practice is very spiritual and very religious.

And originally, back in the day, there's great evidence now that psychedelics were part of originally, or Christianity, it was the original sacrament.

Will & Karen: else is Moses gonna see a burning bush for God's

sakes. Right? I mean, the sea parting, right?

Kayse: But it is, it is, it kind of eliminates the, the middleman of our church structure, if you will, because it is all about your divine connection with source within yourself.

And it's just, it's the sacrament that helps you access that. So I think it's more, a lot of people as they develop spiritually in my program, you come to realize. Your guides, your angels, whatever your connection is, it was there all along and it was your own fear. Often your own fear, your own grief, your own trauma that kept you from hearing it and connecting to it.

And as you work through and you release a lot of the fear and the density, you realize it was there all along. It's just a stronger connection

Will & Karen: [00:31:00] Gotcha. Oh, I have a question. I'm like raising my hand. I have a question. Oh. Oh, Mr. Kata. Well, I just dated myself in a big way. Nevermind. You really did. Ah, edit point.

Okay. So, um, how long does this stay in your, in your system, in, in your, I don't know, blood, urine? Like people that work and get random, you know, drug tests. Drug tests? Yeah. How, how, how does it work?

Kayse: Great question. It's come up. I've worked with a lot of people who work for the government. Um, so they wanna know this question. And so it's 15 hours is what the pharmacists have told me. So whether it's a microdose or a hydro journey, psilocybin clears from your body very, very quickly and it doesn't get retained in your, say, hair or skin like some of

Will & Karen: Mm-hmm.

Score.

Kayse: Yeah.

Will & Karen: Awesome. Um, alright, so I have heard it say, so first, let me back up. I've heard a couple different things and I'll, each one, I'll, I'll address each one separately. First, I've heard that human beings have more in common with fungi than almost any other, uh. Entity, for lack of a better word, there's a fungus among us there.

So I would assume that there is some sort of brethren there going on that connects us and, and [00:32:00] therefore makes it a little bit more of a connective tissue that makes it, you know, better for us to do this kind. I'm, I'm trying to convince Karen right now, so just help me here. I, I've never heard, I've heard pigs.

I've heard they have a lot of common pigs, but I've not heard, we have a lot of common brush. I mean, some people do, they just sit around not a stump. Yeah. What, what have you heard about that?

Kayse: Truth. Yeah. Fungi are amazing. They're amazing. They're so much older than us

Will & Karen: Mm.

Kayse: as a species. They've lived through five extinction events. Over time and carry this wisdom and this knowledge on a cellular level through and across time. So I really think they're here. They're coming back in this moment because they kind of know we need a little help.

Will & Karen: Right, right.

Kayse: kind of in an evolutionary moment right now where we're kind of going, we're branching off right now, and we're kind of becoming the humans. The next iteration of humans, if you will. And I feel like they can do a lot for us in making us. I mean, Paul Stat's one of the most famous Mycologist who's kind of been beating the drum of psilocybin for a very long time on his own for a long time.

He calls psilocybin the Einstein molecule because it really does make you smarter. It makes you. Better [00:33:00] in every way physically. Better your more, your instincts get dialed up, your reflexes improve, but also you're smarter and you're more empathetic and emotionally fluent. And so these are all the qualities that humans really need

Will & Karen: the looking younger thing.

Kayse: Tinctures and serums. Yes.

Will & Karen: So, and, and who doesn't love fun? Guys, I've been waiting. That actually took you longer than I thought. I didn't wanna interrupt her. Alright, so then my second point is I've heard that. Uh, microdosing, uh, and I think you, you kind of alluded to it earlier on, where it connects you more, it makes you feel more grounded, more centered.

It, it gets you more in step with who you truly are. Um, I know a lot of people, me included, have a little bit of a social anxiety disorder type of thing happening where I'm very gregarious, I'm very outgoing, but there are times when I feel like mm, right. Can this, is this something that could help [00:34:00] you in that scenario?

Kayse: Yes, absolutely.

Will & Karen: is like a magic thing. I just have to think. Yes, it's a magic pill.

Kayse: Anxiety is an interesting one. So what we have found when I'm, when I'm talking to people for the first time and I'm asking what brings them, almost always when people say, I ask people, when you get outta balance, which way do you go? Do you get sad and inward and kind of isolate yourself, overeat, binge on Netflix, like is that you?

In those cases, mushrooms are almost always supportive when you tend to go inward with anxiety. If you get out of balance and you kind of. Express outward. Um, it can, it depends on the anxiety. So for example, people who tend to lash out at others, uh, road rages as people, um, tend to not, it's interesting.

Mushrooms don't talk to them. As much, which is really interesting to witness, right? Because it's like spirit always has the last say, right? So with anxiety, I notice for certain things, like I've had a lot of people with [00:35:00] social anxiety, public speakers, people who speak on a lot of stages and they're like, I've done this my whole life and I still am so nervous and anxious every single time.

It's really good for social anxiety. Stage fright, public speaking. It's also really good for specific anxiety. I've had people who can't drive on freeways because they get so anxious driving when it's like heavy traffic or they have to drive in a city, they find themselves driving fine. They don't have that anxiety, so

Will & Karen: spaghettis or long, big, tall bridges or,

Kayse: that, yes, yes, yes.

Will & Karen: you know, I'm not speaking for anybody or anything, but you

know.

Kayse: Yes. Well, what, what the healing happens because underlying that is nervous system dysregulation. So when you regulate your nervous system, Paul Stats, who I just mentioned is a great example of this. He had extreme, um, stutter. When he was a kid and he found as a kid, he was like, it would get worse every time.

It was like a girl I was interested in talking to. It would get way worse. And he did a high dose psilocybin journey when he was a teenager and his stutter cleared and for [00:36:00] years he was like, mushrooms healed my, my stutter. But then he came to realize that it mushrooms didn't heal. His stutter mushrooms healed his underlying anxiety.

Which was causing the stutter was just the manifestation of his social anxiety and it cleared.

Will & Karen: Wow. Now, what about meditation? Does it help deepen meditation?

Will: Hey there, it's Will. Just stepping in here for a second to ask you for a favor. See, the main reason we do this show is to help others in their spiritual awakening, and nothing makes us happier than to hear or read messages from those that are resonating with the messages we're sharing on the show. So if you have a moment, we'd love for you to contribute to the show by heading to skeptic me physician.com and sending us a voicemail or an email.

From our website, or if you prefer, we'd love for you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or any other podcasting platform that supports them. Karen and I love hearing from those that are moved to message us. It truly does fuel our passion. You are the reason we do this [00:37:00] show and knowing what you like and don't like really gonna help us craft the very best show we can so that we can help raise the vibration of the planet together.

Kayse: a lot of people who are regular meditators find themselves getting to a new place in their meditation and they can drop in more quickly.

Will & Karen: Oh, I think I'm the, the only question I have left now, do you have a friends and family discount? Because we're friends now, right? We, I'm happy to be your family. Uh, no, it sounds incredible. I mean, how, how is it that this is not more widely known? Because big pharma doesn't want us to heal all the way so they can keep selling medicines. Maybe we can have our expert. Oh, I'm sorry. That's just my 2 cents.

Kayse: You got it. I mean, just a few days ago, I, along with 50 of my colleagues were shut down and banned on Instagram for exactly the reason you just shared. And this, there's so much positive benefit. There's so much healing. People are really starting to learn about this work and how [00:38:00] accessible it is.

And just a few days ago we all got shut down.

Will & Karen: Wow. Wow.

Kayse: mm-hmm.

Will & Karen: Well, we, we, we don't wanna be on Instagram anyway. Yeah.

Kayse: We're just like mushrooms though. We just pop back up. We just pop back up.

Will & Karen: As long as it's moist in me a little, you know, humid, a little warm, right? Uh, actually, uh, not long ago I went to a mushroom farm for the first time. I didn't know shiitakes, though. There were shiitake mushrooms. Yeah. Um, but it was astounding. Yeah. The, the sheer like will to survive the will to, to come. I mean, there was rows upon rows.

They, they, they were doing them on, uh, cedar wood logs. It wasn't in the ground. I, I, I don't know what to, I, I think I kind of expected when someone said, okay, you're gonna do a shoot at, at a mushroom farm? I thought we were gonna be digging through the dirt. Like, like truffles and things like that. But no, it was a greenhouse and it was row pond, row of these logs, and there was like dozens of mushrooms growing out of these logs.

It was astounding and gorgeous. It's beautiful. And then they gave us a whole bushel of them and they were amazing. So good. Um, they were so clean 'cause you know, when you buy them at the store you gotta wipe off the dirt from the mushrooms. These were completely clean and I'm not gonna give a plug to the mushroom farmer, although I probably should 'cause it'll give us more.

Should because it was good. Well, it's LJ [00:39:00] mushrooms. Look up ship. Yeah, look up L-J-E-L-L-I-J-A-I-Y. Mushrooms in Georgia. And that's, they're, they're amazing. But anyway, amazing. Yeah. Maybe we'll get more mushrooms outta that. Maybe I'll send it

to him and see what he says. But.

Kayse: I lo I love it so much. One of the things we're jamming on a lot, so I have a professional group of microdosing guides. There's 40 of us in there from all over the world who do this work as, as microdosing guides. And lately we've been really excited about combining different functional mushrooms with psilocybin.

In stacking and so learning about how in the future, what I think is gonna happen in the future is we're gonna start pairing different mushrooms for different health conditions. For example, I credit my seizures healing because I stack psilocybin with lion's mane

Will & Karen: Oh, got

it.

Kayse: so anybody that has a nervous system condition.

Any migraine headaches, TBI, stroke, recovery, concussion, anything underlying nervous system, lion's made and psilocybin together is beautiful, but there's so many other functional mushrooms like Turkey tail and Cordyceps, chaga, reishi, that when you stack them together, they amplify and

Will & Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And they're using mushrooms in, I know, in Japan [00:40:00] to work with cancer. Right. Turkey tail specifically. Right. That's what I heard. No, it was a different one. But Turkey tail, yes. But that's not the one that, gotcha. Right. They've got some something else going on. So a little, a little bit outta of the norm question, but let's say someone has something, uh, a physiological something.

Uh, would microdosing help to, like, let's say, I don't know, a, a tumor or something like that, would, would cell dosin or psilocybin or microdosing have any effect on something like that?

Kayse: They've done testing on Turkey tail. I know Turkey Tail has had a positive impact on tumor cessation, um, and shrinking tumors. I don't know that they've tested psilocybin on tumors specifically yet. There's so much research going on right now, which is amazing, and hopefully it will continue. But they have done research on psilocybin therapy for cancer patients, and I've worked with people moving through a cancer journey.

With microdosing as well, and they find it really, really supportive all along the arc because it's, it definitely shifts your perspective and you can hold your diagnosis [00:41:00] much differently than you were.

Will & Karen: Wow, this is incredible stuff. Mm-hmm. Uh, okay, so I know that you help people go through these kinds of things. So if someone wanted to do that, how, how, how, what is the journey? Does it, is it an app that you download or do you, do you reach out to them on a phone call or how does it work?

Kayse: Yeah, so our community, we have a global community with over 30 countries. People can come in and it's. Really accessible. We just structure it like a membership, so it's like a microdosing membership. And so people can come, they get access to safe sourcing, professional resources, and we come together two or three times a month for live coaching calls.

Myself and all the guides in our community are there to answer questions that people have and support them, um, provide them with resources. Then if they wanna go deeper, we all host like six week programs and different niche programs for different things. And then I also have a training program to start training other people who want to do this work too as a profession for the first time.

We're starting that this summer,

Will & Karen: Okay. Wow.

Kayse: lots of different access points for

Will & Karen: And do you provide the microdose tablets or whatever it is to the, to the folks that are [00:42:00] members, the

Kayse: We don't, we don't, um, because that's how we're able to be so public about what we do. Um, the medicine makers and the cultivators tend to stay separate and do things separately. And so some of them, as I said, that have. Um, religious protections that enable them to, to source people within the us. So we have a dedicated partner who sources them that way.

Um, and people do that directly on their own, but we

Will & Karen: but you,

Kayse: the resources they

Will & Karen: so you'd be able to refer someone to someone or something like that, or? Okay.

Got it. Alright. Alright. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, absolutely. What have we not talked about, Casey, that you wanna make sure that the audience really, truly gets from this conversation?

I.

Kayse: Oh gosh. Just how much is possible, you know, I think, I think what has been so eye-opening for people once they start practicing is so much of our Western medical system, what we've always known, has been fixing things that are wrong. And making things manageable. Right. We've kind of operated from that perspective, and so it's really not about like.

Uh, not drinking. It's just not drinking. Being sober, it's not really about thriving, it's about not drinking. So for a lot of people it's just managing pain, [00:43:00] managing depression. But once people start microdosing, it shifts you and go. There is so much more that's possible for my life to not just be not or less depressed.

I can actually thrive in this life and I can wake up feeling good and inspired and vibrant every day, which is so different than the mindset that we've been conditioned to believe is, is

Will & Karen: for sure. Absolutely. Now, for those that might still have a little bit of fear left in

them, is there any reason whatsoever to be afraid of this?

Kayse: No, there's not. And it's really just, it takes education. And comfort. Like I always invite people, it's very, very common in our community that people just go, it just keeps coming to me. Like I just see mushrooms everywhere and they're, uh, I'm having dreams about them and I go to the mall and they're like in the window and I'm just like, it might be time.

And so usually people are, it's funny, like. They call you to it and you come across it and then looking back it's like, oh, they found me right at the [00:44:00] right time. Like my life was about to go through this massive change that happens all the time, and you needed the support. You just didn't know it at the time.

And so it's one of those things that people get called and they come to it at the right time. It's not a practice that, although I wish I could convince certain people. In our government right now

Will & Karen: Yes.

Kayse: to use mushrooms, um, people, it really, it really thrives and works best when people connect individually and are kind of called to it.

So I always invite people in to just learn, you know, you don't have to start practicing, come into our community and just listen, you know, listen to the experience and learn, and all the people who had a lot of fear or wanted to wait. Really after like a call or two, just hearing what's possible and the experience is so different than what they thought it was gonna be.

Um, most people get really comfortable and ask the same question that you asked, which is like, why the hell has this been hidden from

Will & Karen: Right? Mm-hmm. Right.

Kayse: so long?

Will & Karen: Is there any way to overdose on this stuff?

Kayse: No,

Will & Karen: There's no way to overdose.

Kayse: no. They've tried, they've [00:45:00] tested it. Yeah. Actually, psilocybin was ranked, they ranked, um, as a professor in the uk. Ranked like the world's most safest drugs possible. And although I don't like classifying mushrooms as a drug, in this case, it was like, yeah, the fourth safest drug there was, there was literally no way to overdose.

It's kind of like eating too many oranges

Will & Karen: Wow. And it's, it's probably better than aspirin this time in this way 'cause aspirin will actually mess you up. Oh

Kayse: in terms of side effects.

Will & Karen: absolutely. So, um, and what was the, the other question that came up to me when we were asking that overdosing, um, oh, is it habit forming?

Kayse: No, no. So this is another thing. I love this question because even to in the field today. There's still a lot of, um, misconception around that. And so a lot of us are, are taught to take breaks, you know, so we don't develop tolerance to the mushrooms and you don't want it to become habit forming. But I have witnessed over my years supporting people that over time when people come back to [00:46:00] microdosing is not only is it not habit forming, they require a much lower dose because they're more dialed into the medicines.

They have less density. They've worked through some layers and places as they did. So it's kind of the opposite of habit forming. I think if people do develop, you know, humans will binge on anything,

Will & Karen: that's true.

Kayse: right? Cookies, movies, you name it. So I find sometimes when people abuse mushrooms. It's more our human tendency to abuse than it is a quality of the mushrooms that is addicting. Anybody?

Will & Karen: it. Do you think this could help with all, you know, we keep hearing in the news so much about the opioid situation that we have. Do you think this could help people get off or release that addition to opioids?

Kayse: I think mushrooms. I mean, I'm biased. It's my, it's what I do, but I think. Mushrooms, particularly microdosing, can prevent so many addictions in the first place from happening because almost all addictions [00:47:00] is a disconnection from self and other. Psilocybin is such a relational medicine. It changes your relationship to yourself.

It helps people love themselves again, it helps people love other people again, and you're less likely to fall into addictions. If you have that healthy relationship to self in the first place. In terms of active addictions, yes. There's a couple guides in our community who specialize in working with people with addictions of all types.

It's, it's really good to break, um, addictions because addictions are tied to that ruminating, looping mind. And resetting your nervous system can really, really help that. And then there's some bigger medicines for sure that are showing remarkable, um, pattern breaking addiction. Breaking Ibogaine, for example, is, is becoming more widely known.

That is a shrub from Africa that is tremendously effective for also illegal right now in the United States. Hopefully that will be changing too. Um, but iga. [00:48:00] Is, is deeply effective for, um, opioid addiction.

Will & Karen: Cool. Wow. I love it's sister medicine for baldness real game. Sorry. Anyway, uh, did it, can mushroom microdosing help with that? Yes. It'll just deepen, can improve jokes. It'll deepen the, the humor factor. Now what, what I love the most about this is, is the personal factor. Is the, is the. Being, getting in touch with yourself, right?

Getting, um, more in tune with who you are, the, the centeredness, the balance of it. In my journey currently, I'm very, I'm in a very big look inward phase where I'm looking inside seeing things I haven't seen in a long time and working through them and moving forward a better person. And I think this, something like this might.

Help me to do something like that. So it's something I've been curious about for a long time. I think you might've sold me. I just have to get the wife on board and then we'll be good. So,

Kayse: Love it.

Will & Karen: if, if someone wanted to join your community or reach out to ask you any questions or anything like that, what's the best way for someone to do that?

Kayse: I am super accessible online because [00:49:00] my name is spelled so weird, so of easy to find, find me. Um, I'm on all the platforms that allow me to be there.

Will & Karen: No Instagram. We won't be putting that in the show

notes.

Kayse: My, new Instagram is Casey dot Garrett. Yes, I'm

Will & Karen: the new mushroom that popped up. Okay. We might put that one up. We'll

see.

Kayse: but Microdosing for Healing is honestly the best place to go. That's kind of our home base website and that has so many free resources, many, many podcast episodes.

So that's another thing people say oftentimes is they binge on the podcast episodes and really get to hear and learn from a variety of people, different microdosing perspectives to get comfy. Um, so that's there for people. And then we have lots of op options and access points from there for

Will & Karen: Excellent. Well, we're gonna go ahead and add direct links to your platform and your socials if we are able to find them, uh, in the show notes. All you need to do is go to skeptic meta physician.com, go to her episode page. You'll see those links in there so it's easy for you to connect. Casey, this has been.

Eyeopening. Mm-hmm. And mind expanding. Yes. I think I said something like that in the beginning of the episode. I think you might have. Wow. Wow. I am psychic. [00:50:00] Thank you so much for coming on and clearing a lot of misconceptions up for us and helping us to show, uh, showcase, uh, another, another avenue that's available to people that maybe people weren't so sure about.

So thank you for your expertise.

Kayse: Thank you. I appreciate it so much.

Will & Karen: Hey there. I'm Will. And I'm Karen. Welcome back to another exciting Eye Popping, ex eye popping consciousness, expanding maybe eye open episode of Skeptic Me. Let's try that again.

All. Hey there, I'm will. And I'm kidding. No, that's popping my eyes. Yeah. Okay. Are you, are you two hot mushrooms? Uh, not yet, but we can talk later. Alright, here we go.