Psychic Abilities Don't Protect You. They Make You More Vulnerable

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- Karen. - Yes.

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We have been managing a spiritual business of sorts

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for a bit right now. - For a bit.

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How have you noticed how building a spiritual business

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is actually harder than building a regular one?

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Yes.

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You're not just managing clients, right?

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You're managing your energy body, your spirit guides,

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the entities that follow clients, home from sessions.

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Extra-terrestrials.

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A lot of managing.

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And of course, a very real possibility that doing the work

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makes you more sensitive over time, not less,

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not more protected, more permeable.

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We need like a spiritual HR department.

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Well, funny. You should mention that.

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Today we're diving deep into the business of Wu,

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what it actually costs to go full-time.

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Why most practitioners burn out or get predatory

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and the one rule that separates the real ones

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from the cosplay?

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What's that?

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If the math isn't mathing without your spouse's paycheck,

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it's just a very expensive hobby.

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Oh, and apparently you need to tell yourself out loud

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before bed that you won't ask for travel in your sleep

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for several nights a week.

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That's what you've been doing, bro.

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For your health, I'm talking myself all the wrong.

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There's a lot to get into on this episode of Skeleton Musicians,

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which starts now.

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My name is Will.

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And I'm Karen.

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And unlike Molder and Scully.

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Both want to believe.

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So we've embarked on a journey of discovery.

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We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual

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and metaphysical world.

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We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences.

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I even joined a Covenant Witches.

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And, wait.

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You joined a Covenant?

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Yup.

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All in the interest of fighting something.

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Anything.

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That will prove that there's something beyond this physical.

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Three-dimensional world we all live in.

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This is the Skeptic Metaphysians.

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Hey there, I'm Will.

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And I'm Karen.

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Welcome back to the Skeptic Metaphysians.

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A show where we've always suspected

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Spirit Guides had an org chart and it turned out that they do.

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They do?

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Today we're talking about the business of Woo.

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And to help us do this, we've recruited the writer

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of the seminal work in the topic,

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having written the actual book titled The Business of Woo.

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Woo.

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This is a very well-written, sharply intelligent

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and often laugh out loud, funny book

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that happens to take psychic practice completely seriously.

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Kind of like Rhara Barale.

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Rhara Barale.

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Now the book does such a great job of translating

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corporate, speaking to spiritual business terms

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and her raw willingness to name predatory behavior

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in the Woo space directly with evidence

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and specific case studies sets it apart

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from virtually everything else in the genre.

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I'm gonna abandon the book.

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Her name is Rachel White and she's spent almost 20 years

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as a Senior Vice President at a global corporation

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all while quietly doing touroing

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over to the Chicago apartment on the weekends.

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And now she is a full-time shaman.

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With thousands of clients,

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a sold-out touro deck and a book

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that essentially calls out most of the spiritual industry

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as a scam.

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There's a reason the Woo space is full of predators

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and there's a reason most spiritual businesses fail

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and Rachel knows them both.

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And she's not polite about it.

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Which is why we love her so much

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and we're so excited.

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Welcome to the show today, Rachel White.

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How are you doing?

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I'm good. You guys are so good at this, by the way.

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You should hear my intro.

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So you do stuff.

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Tell people about the stuff you do.

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Thanks for having me.

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Thank you so much for that intro.

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And I have to say you kind of, you know,

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outside of the very sweet compliments.

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I think you nailed the essence of the book.

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And I was a little scared to write it, frankly.

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Really?

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Yeah, it's our world is very into love and light.

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And I am too.

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But that helps you with everything.

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And so any time you touch the third rail of like realism

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in this space, I think people feel a certain way about it.

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And also, you know, as you said in your intro,

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which was brilliant.

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And thank you so much.

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The case studies and examples.

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Those are based on real events.

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Right.

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And there's thousands of them.

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And good ones, not just negative ones,

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but I've seen so much wild stuff.

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Yes.

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Since doing this.

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And it's like, is anybody else watching this movie?

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Kind of a thing.

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And I feel like so much of it is just like, yeah, but you know,

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it's just the wound.

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It's like, I don't know that that's what this is actually.

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Well, we're watching.

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Right.

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Because I know plenty of people who don't do that.

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So I'm glad we're finally talking about it.

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And I wanted the book to be a real conversation starter in the space.

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And give people some grounded hope.

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Where it wasn't mindset, manifestation, pure work.

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But like things to do, things you can do.

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And that's what I love about the book the most.

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Thank you very much for the event's copy.

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It was a great read and I'll tell you, it is like a manual,

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a how to book to stand up a business,

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not just a spiritual business, just a business as a whole.

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It just will happen to be surrounding spirituality.

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But you've got stuff in there like,

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or charts, spiritual or charts and dotted line managers

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and solid line managers being your spirit guides.

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And even talk about doing a performance review with your spirit guide as your manager.

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I mean, it's your end.

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I'm still waiting for my bonus.

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That's an amazing.

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I mean, aren't we all really?

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I'll receive that at any moment.

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Yeah.

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I work a lot when I'm with people.

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So I started doing this consulting work.

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I call it business of who mentoring.

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I was partly being cute about it.

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But also it is what it is.

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People look into me for spiritual,

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trans-racial coaching and one-to-long-to-business.

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I was like, yeah, let's do it.

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I can talk to you about that.

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And it's not that I'm some great genius.

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I'm really not.

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But I think I took for granted things in my background that were just in the air.

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Right?

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Like things that just people took for granted as they understood it.

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We all spoke the same language.

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And realized how needed this is.

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And how many people, in particular, I have to say on Instagram,

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sort of perpetuate, like myths around business,

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that aren't reflective of reality.

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And so people list of them, they might pay the money,

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and then they go out in the marketplace,

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and they go, well, it's not working.

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It must be me.

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I hear that a lot.

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People really beat themselves up.

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And they internalize it.

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There's a lot of self-criticism,

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and a lot of imposter syndrome that comes as a result.

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And it's like, it's not your business is hard.

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Yeah.

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Hard on a good day.

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And there are those concrete steps that you have to take to have a business.

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And so many of these, you see all these ads are like manifest.

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And it's so much more than that.

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It's not just hoping or putting the intention out there.

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You've got to take the steps and do the work.

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Right.

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And thankfully, you are really making a plan for people to be able to do that.

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Yeah.

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In the order of operations to do it in.

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Like before you design a logo,

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why do you think through what your value proposition is to the marketplace?

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What differentiates you?

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Who are the people you want to work with?

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What's their life like?

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You know, that day in the life user journey, humanizing your client base.

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Giving them a name, really getting to know them.

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And that way you're not too far down the road.

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Then trying to solve those things on the back end.

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Everyone I know, whether they're up here,

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and in some cases people well ahead of me in terms of their professional accomplishments

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or people just getting started, I find that a lot of the business problems they have are

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because what they built doesn't align with who they actually energetically are

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and what they actually want to do all the time.

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It's built around an idea of a thing.

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And I think that results in a lot of the weird stuff that we, you know,

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referenced at the beginning in your intro,

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like the weird behaviors or some of the shady S H I T.

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You see is they're in deep and they don't know how to pivot this machine.

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And so they're just trying to make it work now.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So, but I should, we should call out also that it is not just a business model.

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Not a map on how to build a business.

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It is, but it is very, very firm, firmly rooted in the whoo.

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So that's why they call it the business of whoo.

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So you actually go deep into, hey, take a look at the clairs.

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Like which one are you and make a decision based on who you really are

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before you move a step just like how you mentioned right now.

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But you've got several different thoughts in the book that I want to go into.

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I want to touch on with you.

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One of the first ones that really grabbed my attention was the princess and the pea paradox.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So practice years we are sensitive.

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And that means you are sensitive and building that into a business model is really challenging.

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Yeah.

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By the way.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Because business typically is not for the week of heart or for the thin of skin, right?

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And as a whole in this space, when you open yourself up to energies, you, by definition,

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open yourself up to energies, right?

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So you've got to be able to put things around you to help protect you.

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That's important.

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Yeah.

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And the better you get at it, the more you put the reps in and you level up,

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psychically, spiritually, energetically, the more sensitive you become, actually.

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So, yeah.

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So, I would think for someone starting, brand new, starting a business in this kind of space,

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first of all, you have to kind of get your nerve up because this is still, I mean,

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as much as it's becoming more popular, more mainstream, more accepted, it's still,

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woo.

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So to get out there and start a business in mainstream America or wherever,

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it still takes some guts.

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And your experience with the people that you talk to, what are some of the biggest mistakes

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that they make right away when they're thinking about starting a business?

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One of them is they've got really good friends in their life that really enjoy when they

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read their tarot cards or do their astrology chart, right?

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And they go, dude, I get this feedback.

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I'm really good at this and they might be good at it.

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But those two or three people in your life aren't going to pay your bills.

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And so, remembering that when you go to market, you're going to be working with people that are not your friends,

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that you've never met, they're all different kinds of people.

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A lot of the clients or customers that come to us in this business of,

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woo, are going through something.

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Their life is in transformation, it's being disrupted.

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Maybe they're going through a divorce, they're sick.

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They've come out of a real like ego desk, maybe they've gotten laid off.

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They don't know what they're doing next.

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They're next 2.0 of themselves professionally or whatever it might be.

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And you have to be present for them and give them that same service.

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And then also balance being honest with them and being skillful in what you do with managing boundaries.

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Because they may want to hear certain things from you, right?

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And you also don't know what they're dealing with the way you do with your friends.

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It's a bit of a black box.

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So to me, that's always the biggest mistake is like the map is not the territory.

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And you're beta testing, you're incubating, gestating this thing as a hobby, as an interest.

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And then it's so different than when you take it to market.

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It really is.

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And the other thing I'll say is like, Tiro Cardinian says an example,

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people sign up with you online, they book on Calonly,

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like I booked this wonderful podcast recording with you guys.

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You don't know who they are.

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You have no idea what's going to show up in that session,

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what someone's going to talk to you about, what stories you're going to hear.

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It's not for the week.

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And not that I'm like some badass or whatever, because I've gotten gutted sometimes people.

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And not being disturbing or inappropriate, but just their life story.

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And then you have to go into another session.

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And you're like, how?

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How am I going to process this just as a person, not even as a practitioner.

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And what does that require for me and the rest of my life?

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Like, how do I make sure I don't get taken out by that undertow?

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Or as my friend Abigail said, because she's an animal communicator,

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we stumbled on that when she did the coaching work with me.

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And she's doing that full time.

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She started trying to save every animal at the shelter because she could talk to them psychically.

283
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And she goes, Rachel, I hit such compassion fatigue.

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Like I was trying to save every one of them because I can talk to them.

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So when your psychic ability or your healing ability meets with objective reality

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and where the world is right now, it's a lot for you.

287
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So you got to make money.

288
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You have to grow a client list.

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You still have to do things like send an email out, work on your newsletter.

290
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You have to, you know, I wrote this book in the middle of being insanely sick.

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Me and my whole family were to move out of a house because of mold toxicity.

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And I'm dealing with a legal situation.

293
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So I'm writing a book and then I have to go do a client session.

294
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I have to be present for them and their thing.

295
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And it's not about my thing.

296
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So how do you turn the volume down?

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But then make sure you don't get lost.

298
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Like that you turn the volume back up again on you when you're done.

299
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It's quite a balancing act, I would say.

300
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Yeah, I would say.

301
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Yeah, imagine.

302
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So you, now I read the book, so I know.

303
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But what if someone comes to the book for the first time, comes into a cold?

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What could, I mean, are you, are they going to be able to stand up a business

305
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from the ground up when they read the book?

306
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I think they can get it framed out.

307
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And I think it's going to prompt them to think about all the things they need to build.

308
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So first and foremost is that early section on what practitioner archetype are you?

309
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And it's not meant to limit you because you can be a shaman or a psychic reader or diviner

310
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or an animal communicator and not do those things for the general public, but host a podcast

311
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or create content on YouTube, right?

312
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So there's infinite permutations of how it manifests, but going from the psychic abilities,

313
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the clearest checklist to your chakras, to then a practitioner archetype,

314
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I think helps people just get a rough order of magnitude, concept of who they are.

315
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And that's the first step on how to go to market.

316
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And then, you know, at the back end of that go to market section with all those pieces in it,

317
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like, you know, your marketing strategy, your thought, capital strategy.

318
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How do you, what are the like nuts and bolts of it?

319
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What are the best practices?

320
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How do people book with you?

321
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How do you build a website?

322
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How do people pay you?

323
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How do you manage ethics?

324
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What are your policies and procedures?

325
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Kind of like the boring stuff, which is why I quit case studies and stories in there.

326
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Because it's really the meat and potatoes of it, but that's where you see the wheels come off a lot, I think.

327
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What is the day to day grind of it?

328
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I've talked to a lot of people who were like, yeah, I'm spending like 68 hours a day creating content

329
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either for online courses or Instagram.

330
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And they go, you know, I'm just going to get discovered.

331
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And you're like, no, you have to, no, no, no, you need to be like producing, generating revenue.

332
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And my medicine for that is work with people.

333
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Do people work if that's a struggle area for you?

334
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Because those people will support you.

335
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,000
You know, I just ramped up doing coaching work with a client who launched her own business.

336
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,000
It's awesome.

337
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Well, I started working with like 12, 13 years ago in Chicago.

338
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So people grow with you.

339
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They may leave for a while, come back.

340
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You have to be patient with a long runway here and you got to stay busy in an ethical way.

341
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Right. Right.

342
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Yeah.

343
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And do you find that people that are in the space have a harder time focusing on the boring stuff?

344
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Yeah, I did too. It's not fun.

345
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No one likes those meetings.

346
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I mean, I like them when they're doing that.

347
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There's like a countenance and people that get into that.

348
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Right.

349
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Yeah, and they don't do this.

350
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Trust me.

351
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Yeah, they're dialed into their worlds.

352
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I would say, yeah, no, we're particularly challenged, I think, because, you know, I'll just speak for myself.

353
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I'm very liminal, like if given a choice between writing an almost 300 page book and walking around and talking to nature spirits, I know which one I'm picking.

354
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The book, right?

355
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,000
No.

356
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,000
[laughter]

357
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:11,000
So that's where like short term satiation versus long term happiness and meaning kind of come in and balancing that.

358
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So giving yourself treats, making sure you're doing your spiritual stuff, which usually we really enjoy that you're staying inspired.

359
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And that being a part of your self-care routine, but also like there's some just need to have.

360
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Yeah.

361
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,000
And they're not always the sexiest or the most fun.

362
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But now I get to talk to people like you about the book.

363
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,000
And that's really meaningful and that produces a lot of happiness for me.

364
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We're not the most self-disciplined group as a whole.

365
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,000
What?

366
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,000
Yeah.

367
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000
Just because I'm like, "Treats doesn't mean."

368
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I just had this image of someone like on a, there's like a boat and they're in the little life best float with a string of tat, not a rope, not a string of gas.

369
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And you float just in play and then you got to really yourself back to the book and do the hard thing.

370
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And then you let yourself float away and enjoy it and you got to float yourself back.

371
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And it's one of the reasons I wrote that section of the book called "Fung Shui Your Day" about grouping like tasks.

372
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Like don't do the accounting work or you know your house keeping work, your email catch ups, during like in and out of psychic sessions with clients.

373
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Try and block your calendar off.

374
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So like you have whole blocks of time, certain days when you're in the woo fully.

375
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And other days when you're doing your administrative work.

376
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Because those two hemispheres of the brain going back and forth in real time.

377
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That's a lot.

378
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It's a jolt too.

379
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I had to do it a few times when an emergency came up and you're like, "These two, it's like church and state.

380
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They don't like being near each other at all."

381
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,000
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

382
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So we'll every other day.

383
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Yeah.

384
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And then the boring stuff in between.

385
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,000
And also scheduling entire days to give yourself unstructured time.

386
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:55,000
As psychics, you need a significant amount of alone time relative to other people I've found.

387
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,000
Like I've never met someone who does this genuinely.

388
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Like a real psychic, a real terracred reader astrologer, whatever it is, who's intensely extroverted for long periods of time.

389
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They get wiped.

390
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000
So we're like weird little introvert people who tend to work in our homes.

391
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We don't leave a lot.

392
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Getting us out of the house is kind of a whole endeavor.

393
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000
It's a lot for people.

394
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,000
Yeah.

395
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,000
Well, let's say someone was considering opening up a woo business.

396
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And they pick up your book and they have an idea of what type they are.

397
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Because the cool thing about the book is that you actually, it's not just a book you sit down and read, cover to cover.

398
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You actually take a minute, you go through some exercises to figure out who you are, what you want to do.

399
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,000
It's really a cool, almost like a workbook, right?

400
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And wrapped inside of a hardcover.

401
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,000
But someone's done all that.

402
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,000
And now they've stood up their business and now creates.

403
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,000
Yeah.

404
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,000
Right?

405
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,000
Crickets.

406
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000
Like they thought that like you said, I'm going to be discovered.

407
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,000
So how can someone actually be discovered?

408
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,000
Well, what you guys do, you know, I am sure you read in the book.

409
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,000
I'm very bullish on podcasting for a variety of reasons.

410
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:32,000
Like I think thought capital, which is creating content, writing books, writing white papers, writing text heavy stuff, podcasting, having long form discussions, is the remedy to everything that's kind of lacking or is too volatile right now in the marketing space.

411
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,000
In a particular social media, right?

412
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People really get to know you.

413
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,000
You get to write or talk about things you find interesting.

414
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,000
You get to make connections with people, podcasting, whether it's my own podcast or being a guest.

415
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:52,000
I think I've developed more meaningful connections there in that space than anywhere else with my business, truly.

416
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,000
So really getting, I just think podcasting right now is very decentralized to democratize.

417
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Anyone can do it.

418
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000
I happen to pay an audio editor for mine, but you don't have to do that actually.

419
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,000
You can just push it out in the world on your own.

420
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000
There's these great software tools, editing tools, everything else that you need.

421
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000
And being patient with that, because there is, there's a little subsection in the book called the Valley of Disappointment.

422
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And it's a thing that happens in every business, every industry, every geography.

423
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But you're always going to have a slump.

424
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And it's like, how do you navigate the slump?

425
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,000
But my suggestion is don't force it, enjoy the Valley.

426
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What can you tune about your business? What can you build right now? Can you write a book?

427
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What else can you be doing?

428
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,000
And then the other big thing with growing the business, getting noticed, getting discovered is get to know people in real life.

429
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Go around your neighborhood, hand them business cards, tell them what you do.

430
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You're going to have to check your shyness slash embarrassment at the door.

431
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,000
And it's not a hard sell. It's like, hey, my name's Rachel. You know, I live in the neighborhood.

432
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This is what I do. I'd love to talk to you sometime and see if we can collaborate or if you want to put my postcards out.

433
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Right.

434
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,000
And get business from real life, stuff like that.

435
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,000
However, you're not going to do it and go, hi, I'm Rachel. I live in neighborhood.

436
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,000
I read psychic to row cards for a living. Can we chat about that?

437
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,000
You might get some door.

438
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,000
I don't knock on residential homes. I go to businesses, local businesses.

439
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:18,000
I happen to live in a neighborhood here in East Austin where there are a lot of boutiques, restaurants, bookstores, wine bars, restaurants.

440
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000
People are very cool and weird. And you tell them about what you're doing.

441
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000
They're like, oh, yeah, we'll put your postcards, your business cards out. No problem.

442
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:36,000
Thanks so much. And you know, I'm doing a book signing here at an old, it's an old vintage literally mansion, like pre-war building that they turned into an indie bookstore and wine bar.

443
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,000
And I'm doing a book signing there.

444
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000
And they're going to post it. It's a free event for the public. I'll meet people there.

445
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000
They'll get to hear me talk, get to hear me talk about the book, get to meet my clients and my friends.

446
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:53,000
And it's asymmetric really because it's never one to one. It's not like you're going to have people go, please right now let's do a reading.

447
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,000
But you know, a couple of weeks later you might get an email.

448
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,000
They say, oh, we were doing an event here and one of our vendors dropped out.

449
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,000
Do you want to come and read oracle cards or tarot cards for people at this event we're having?

450
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000
And you say yes, like get in front of people, meet people and talk to people.

451
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,000
And be patient. A lot of my business comes from client referrals.

452
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:19,000
That works much better than social media does. Real people in real life telling their co-workers, their friends, their family members.

453
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That they got some insight from a session or maybe you know doing the coaching program.

454
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,000
And telling their friend that they think it's what they need. That's a huge piece of this.

455
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000
So make sure that you're paying attention to the person in front of you while you're working.

456
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,000
Because you're not actively doing it as a marketing exercise. You're focusing on what you're doing.

457
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:45,000
But that person could go out and be what we call a brand evangelist for you and spread the good word.

458
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:51,000
Yeah, I mean that sounds great. But there are some people that struggle with getting out there.

459
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000
You know, they might find themselves in that valley and just kind of get not that they're enjoying the valley like you're saying.

460
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000
But they're like they don't know how to get out.

461
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,000
Like what's the tip that you could tell someone just something that they could focus on maybe to help them.

462
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,000
Well, themselves out of that valley. A big one is what we call differentiation.

463
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,000
You know, and that's a term you hear, but it has a very specific meaning.

464
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,000
And a differentiator is a best statement. A first statement or an only statement.

465
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,000
So are you the first person to do this modality? Like did you invent something?

466
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:29,000
Did you innovate in this space? Are you the best at something? Maybe based on reviews, public reviews and award, whatever it might be.

467
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:38,000
Or are you the only person doing this thing in this way by some metric? Like you do have to produce what we would call like a proof point in Quarterm America.

468
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Something that edifies that and makes that real. And for me, so many people have things that make them so distinct and so special.

469
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And they don't see it that way because you know, they're the fish in water.

470
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Does the fish know it's in water? And so pulling those things out. And if you don't have any, get one.

471
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:04,000
Come up with something. So my friend Sam has a day job. He has actually like a pen name. He doesn't use his real name and his work.

472
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:12,000
But he's a really talented astrologer. He started calling me and talking to me about doing planetary magic right now with all these big planets moving.

473
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I'm not a Western astrologer. And I said, Sam, I don't know what a astrologer on planet earth offering astrology consultations to advise people on the planetary magic they can do in their lives.

474
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Like the day of the week, the hour of the day, the planet they're talking to to help anchor some dream they're trying to build in material reality. I said, it's a differentiator.

475
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:44,000
And he was like, I'm going to think about that. Thanks so much. And he's joining the analyze stream on Wednesday is my like secret mystery guest because he's going to do analyze my chart through the lens of planetary magic. So.

476
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:54,000
And that's how you get to innovation and innovation is an answer to a question no one's asking. Yeah. But you know, to your point here and it requires you have to have self belief.

477
00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:05,000
Yeah, you got to get over in posture syndrome. And you have to start playing not like a reckless or irresponsible way but like a playful, joyful, curious way with the work itself.

478
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:15,000
Because that tends to interest people. And if you're memorable and unique and you mean it, like you're, you're earnest about it, that goes a long way. It does. Yeah.

479
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:27,000
In this, you have to be obsessed. Yes. In this, in this space, which is now growing by leaps and bounds. And you see all the numbers, how multi million billion dollar industry.

480
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:44,000
This is turning out the D and everybody is trying to get their piece of the pie. Yeah. Twofold one, you've got to really want it, right? This is not a, this is not a little part time thing you either you go either in or you're out, but you say don't do it.

481
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:55,000
And quit your day job until you have enough that you're being overwhelmed that you have to quit your day job because now you know you can sustain yourself, right?

482
00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:06,000
Yeah. Not everyone has that type of drive. So does that mean that everyone who's just kind of just want to do this because, you know, the universe is calling me to it. Should they just give up their dream?

483
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:20,000
No, no, but have a backup plan for money. And I, you know, that can be very free to have just a job that's just a job that you do well, your punctual polite, you do your work, you get a paycheck.

484
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:33,000
And this, you know, for me, this was how I spent all of my free time when I worked in corporate truly. I did readings Friday evening and Saturdays and I taught workshops on Sundays because I got bored of going to brunch.

485
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:41,000
Everybody just drinking like that's what Chicago is. And, and you know, I wasn't particularly interested in having children and things like that.

486
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:52,000
So at a certain point, it's like you got to find a thing and I happen to have a passion that, you know, in this space, I'll say the passion is very deep. That makes you very vulnerable.

487
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:58,000
It makes you vulnerable to criticism on a way that I never was in any other job I've ever had.

488
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:09,000
You do sacrifice and not always just money and time like you, you don't go on vacations to do certain things. You don't give yourself certain things because you're giving them to other people, right.

489
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:22,000
It's almost like cleaving a limb off and handing it to people when you write about your psychic experiences or what it's like to communicate with like an ancient God, these are profound and really intimate pieces of you as a human being.

490
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:29,000
So yeah, you don't, I don't like when people quit their day job right away when they get this idea for a very specific reason.

491
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:36,000
Number one, I wrote that because I heard that there's life coaches telling people to do that. That the universe only fits on you if you're betting on you.

492
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,000
And it's like, take that person of Vegas or my cow.

493
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,000
One night.

494
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,000
They should be a subprime mortgage broker. That's what that sounds like to me.

495
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:58,000
And when you do it part time and you're still getting paycheck, you can build a client list. So you don't need the same two people to come back every week that gets weird, nonethical and in meshed and kind of boundaries get blurred. It gets, it gets weird.

496
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:12,000
And you can beta test modalities. You can pay to get certified and different things like get a raky attunement. See if you like doing raky. See if you want to be a yoga instructor and you're not totally compressed yet by the demands of material reality.

497
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:18,000
It's not your soul motive in the choices you're making and the modalities you're exploring.

498
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:26,000
And so to me, it's like a way to underwrite your Wu-based business. And you should stay in that as long as it's feasible. And that's what I did.

499
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,000
And I left it a very tumultuous time, you know, my job in corporate March of 2020.

500
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:39,000
But to me, I was like, I've been doing this 10 years. And now is the time. The world's weird. It's go time. It was my feeling.

501
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:49,000
And I very intentionally, I'll never forget I got a commercial space, some meditation center right off the green line. And I said, I'm going to give myself for the next year, the gift of time.

502
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Like I'm not going to push on the business front that hard. I have enough clients. I'm in Chicago. I'm going to be busy. I'm going to teach workshops and do one on readings.

503
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:09,000
But I really want to like look jury eight in doing this and not multitasking constantly. And I remember the first little train ride, like subway ride, I took to my space. And I wasn't multitasking.

504
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:20,000
I wasn't on work calls. I wasn't checking emails. I was just present. And so the other thing I'd recommend is get really clear on what you want out of things at each maybe six to 12 month interval.

505
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:32,000
What do I want my who based business, my practice, this work, what I want to give other people and what do I want to give myself right now? Like what do I need? Yeah.

506
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Is there like with the people that you're talking to in your clients, is there like a like a hot modality these days? Like there might be someone that can channel and can do astrology and does meditation.

507
00:29:43,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Which one is like the how one? Well, I'd say things that are a quote hot are going to be commoditized and saturated. So, you know, hotness sense that everyone's talking about it right now, but how much money are people making how crowded? Is it how well can you differentiate what's the competitive marketplace there look like like two things that strike me when you ask me that question or human design and like the anyogram stuff, right?

508
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Now, I don't know anyone doing that full time making money. They all have to get a part time job. They tried it. It doesn't work. There's so many people certified in it. And the other piece of that is to your point earlier Karen, this is not mainstream.

509
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:36,000
It might feel that way to people interested in it, but it's not. And you can't consult only other human design people. They can self serve for they have their own friend or their own astrologer, their own friend agreed's tear cards. So you have to start breaking into what I joking.

510
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:47,000
What I jokingly call like the muggle client base. And I'll tell you those people they know what a tear card reading is. They're really into it. Then they get really intrigued by energy work.

511
00:30:47,000 --> 00:31:04,000
So in terms of hot like there's trends and I think human design is probably leading at that. The other thing I would say is all this light language stuff. Everyone I knew was in marketing who had to get out of that because of the economy now does light language. And they can carry your diseases, which is an intriguing pivot.

512
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:21,000
And I'll leave it at that. I think the manifestation wave like that abundance gospel stuff is is waning because people did that during COVID. They learned that like, you know, there's science to that. I actually believe in that. But also you have to work.

513
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:48,000
And sometimes life life sometimes things happen, you know, last year we basically have like a bomb go off in our life. We got really ill because of a mold infestation. And there's no accounting for that happening. And so, you know, sometimes you hit the wall of reality and you hit it harder than at other times. And so what I've seen. And this is like an early indicator is people are getting much more pragmatic.

514
00:31:48,000 --> 00:32:05,000
People that are booking readings with me and my clients are doing it because you know they have a custody situation with an ex. They are looking for a new job with all the AI layoff so the turn in the job market consumer confidence is at the lowest levels ever been in American history, including the Great Depression.

515
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:21,000
There's no liquidity in the market. So people are really playing games with spirit stuff anymore. They want help. They want a way show where they want a tool. They want dates times the air things to look for things to zero in on.

516
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:34,000
And a lot of people want to build their own side hustle, frankly, which is one of the reasons I want to get the book out as quickly as I did was it was like a pressing conversation. It seemed to be everywhere.

517
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:47,000
Whether or not it's super will or it's just maybe it's like interior design with a little maybe they're an energetically sensitive and they're really good at tuning at home or maybe they want to make jewelry or music or art. It's kind of the same model.

518
00:32:47,000 --> 00:33:03,000
And they want someone to give them the real deal about that. They really want to do it now. Yeah. I'd say to retreat seem to be waning. Have you guys noticed that in person retreats. That doesn't seem to be at the fever pitch. It was for the since 2020 to 2025.

519
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:11,000
So so you talk about someone people wanting weight showers and things like that that opens up a little bit of a Pandora's box right when it comes to life.

520
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:21,000
Really because if people are looking for someone to show them the way and someone tries to show them the way and then suddenly it was not the way now they're going to come after you saying you told me to do this.

521
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:29,000
Yeah. And it's your fault. How does someone deal with that in his business? Well, that's why you never tell any client how to live their life.

522
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:37,000
And so you, you know, I'm literally in the business of prophecy actually like when you boil it all down. It's really the core of what I do.

523
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:46,000
So it's funny for me to be such a free will advocate. But it kind of makes sense in the sense of like this is what I'm seeing. These are the probabilities, the possibilities.

524
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:59,000
These are the themes unfolding and then you empower that client to take that data and make better more informed decisions, but they're still making the decision like I had a client a long, long time ago.

525
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:05,000
And I gave her a card reading. I said, you're going to meet your husband. You're going to get married. You're going to move out of the country and all those things happened.

526
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:12,000
And then she wrote to me and she said, well, how could you do this to me? He cheated on me. And I was like, I didn't pick him and I didn't marry him.

527
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:21,000
Like there is a point at which it is your life. You're living and you're making your own decisions. I just see I read the tea leaves.

528
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:30,000
She didn't say she'd be happy, right? And then was it a question? And you know, you cope. And I'm sure for a time she was, but you know, humans are human.

529
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,000
Right. And things happen.

530
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:41,000
You didn't say that she was going to marry some jerk and you know, you know, you got to keep that to yourself because she's not going to believe that when you first tell her if you told her she'd be like, oh, you're so terrible.

531
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,000
Well, there's no accounting for taste.

532
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,000
I wouldn't marry.

533
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,000
It could be great.

534
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000
And also always explaining to clients that these are the things that we're seeing. This is what spirits allowing us to get a glimpse of.

535
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:05,000
There's other stuff too. This is just our little line of sight today. And what's funny is I literally sell what I do that way in the marketplace.

536
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,000
It's a much harder sell to be like, I don't know, could be, could be. We'll see.

537
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,000
And they're like, well, but I want to sure thing. I go, that's not real.

538
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:24,000
And I've noticed since right around the beginning of the fire, her sheer that the reality check version of this work got really popular again. And I'm happy to see it.

539
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,000
And people are like, here's what's going on my life. I'm just looking for some insight.

540
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,000
You know, can you help me? And they take notes and it's collaborative. And it feels really empowering and productive.

541
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000
It's in its best form, I think.

542
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Okay. So the business is up. It's ready to go. They're doing podcasts and stuff. And now they're going to be super, super popular because they are busing their butt on social media.

543
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:55,000
They're going to get so well known because they're using social media as their marketing campaign. Right? What could possibly go wrong with you?

544
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:10,000
I think people don't realize social media is really structured a bit like a Ponzi scheme where they make they need existing users or members to recruit constantly recruit. They need to grow, grow, grow.

545
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:21,000
Right. And in that, you're not paying them for a good or service of equal value. And you're not paying them to use social media because they're selling your data.

546
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:30,000
And they're selling you advertising. Usually you become an unwitting consumer when you're on there and you're trying to sell and you get sold to a lot of the time.

547
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:41,000
I think social media particular Instagram feels very saturated to me. It feels like the hey day might be waning. They might change their algorithm again. So I could change my opinion.

548
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:54,000
But you know, you post something to Instagram and it basically is there for a split second, the lifespan of a fruit fly. And then it's on. Whereas if you write on sub stack or you write a book or you podcast, it's evergreen.

549
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:05,000
There are people still finding your podcast listening to my earlier episode with you guys and reaching out to me. It's there forever. Typically, if someone gets into a podcast, they'll binge every episode. That's what I do.

550
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:18,000
I find a podcast I really like is I go all the way back through out of my long walks that I listen to it. And the other thing I would say is really work with your clients. Your clients are going to be your best sales team.

551
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,000
And so if they post about you on social media, it's way better than you posting that you on social media. If you can get away with it. Yeah.

552
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:38,000
And in regard to social media, right, the whole the whole game of the social media platform is to keep you on their platform. So if you're promoting something on Instagram, they're going to wait and stay on Instagram.

553
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,000
Yeah.

554
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:46,000
The majority of people aren't going to see an advertisement for a podcast and go, oh, I better get off Instagram and go listen to the show now. Right. Right.

555
00:37:46,000 --> 00:38:00,000
And not going to do that. So social media is not really the best marketing for that kind of thing. And people do it badly. Have you noticed, like social media, it's become this people, my client James, dude, shout out to James.

556
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:14,000
I jumped at them about my book and I go watch. I'm going to go on social media. Go, you guys, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. We all know this, like, trope thing now that we see of, like, I'm thrilled to tell you, boy, do I have a big surprise for you.

557
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:27,000
And it's totally regressive and infantilizing in manipulative. It's neuro linguistic programming. It's heightening emotionality with language and tone and these gesticulating movements and things like that. And it's really

558
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,000
It's condescending to your audience.

559
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:50,000
And so what I would say is if you do spend time on social media, treat it like this is what I do. It's price of admission. I go in there, let people know or mind them. I'm alive. A root of book. Here it is. New podcast episode out. But I give myself a budget for that every day. So I can focus on revenue producing client facing work.

560
00:38:50,000 --> 00:39:07,000
I actually don't think of it as work. And this is an old corporate trick of meetings and emails are work. Work is work. Like, are you producing client deliverables? Are you producing billable hours? Are we making money on your work? Are you just performing the pageant of being at work?

561
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,000
Right.

562
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,000
Yeah.

563
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:26,000
And so it's social media, I guess, would be good for awareness, right? Yeah. And people will go to your Instagram. They will go to your TikTok or your Twitter or whatever it is to look and to follow you when they meet you or they see your stuff or whatever it is they go and they they might message you there.

564
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:43,000
But you're not converting to sale there as much because a lot of what we do is basically professional services. It's a form of consulting. It's not consumer products. It's not lipstick. It's not perfume. Those convert to sale on social media at a high, high rate.

565
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:54,000
Our world just doesn't as much. So judging your expectations. Right. Right. Yeah. So we've talked about marketing. But what if someone is, you know, they're very good at what they do.

566
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,000
And they've got the business plan and they're ready to start, but they don't know how to how much to charge for their services.

567
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000
Yeah. And how to value themselves.

568
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Oh boy. That's a big sticky wicked. It really is. We're all anyone in the spaces uncomfortable talking about money. That's just the truth of it. And so I just ripped the bandaid off.

569
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000
You know, and I have a little formula in the book in pricing strategy. There's different pricing strategies for different phases of your business.

570
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:32,000
So when you're in grow mode, you're new. You're trying to what we were just talking about get noticed, get discovered, grow, build your client list, which is really your most valuable asset.

571
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:44,000
Put a price lower than you really think you should charge not abysmally low, but low enough that it's no one has to have a second thought about booking with you. If someone in the office mentions it, they go, oh man, it's 50, 60 bucks. Let's go.

572
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:56,000
Let's go. Cause you're also, it's like a paid internship. You're working out the kinks. You're figuring out what days of the week you like to work zoom in person. If in person, what room, where do you like to be? How do you like to do it?

573
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:11,000
And so it's, it's giving you an opportunity to play and get paid professionally. You know, so there's an even exchange of energy there. And then when you get to a certain point where you're busy enough, you have enough repeat clients enough for furls, you bump your number up.

574
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:22,000
And like I was just working with a client, business of a mentoring client. And I thought he's significantly undercharged for his experience and knowledge level. Like he knows everything there is to know about tarot truly.

575
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:37,000
Like the tower card, the genesis for that, a tower in Italy that fell like all this stuff, brilliant human being. And I actually booked with him. And he was like, why'd you book with me? We're working together. I don't do this is my, this is my religion is I'm paying you money.

576
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:48,000
I'm going to sign up on your website. I'm not going to be paying in the ass. I have to practice what I preach. And he was extraordinary at it. And so my first suggestion was him to raise his price, you know, to really get it up there.

577
00:41:48,000 --> 00:42:04,000
And you look at market comps, you look at what other people that are kind of eminent in this space that have been at a long time what they charge. I think when we get to thousands of dollars for a tarot reading, it's absurd. Actually, I would never pay that it doesn't matter how much money I have.

578
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,000
But I've really done that thought exercise.

579
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:19,000
So it's a gold pleated to road deck ratio. You don't understand. There's a cost and concluded in this at the panel. I've got really good tarot readings for 20 bucks at a bar in Wisconsin in like a dark old man bar.

580
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:31,000
So I really think that at a certain point it becomes absurd. And I've also found that the people who really charge a lot. What I've heard about their service delivery is it's not very good.

581
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:43,000
So there's sort of a sweet spot that people in the marketplace consumers of the woo understand is like pretty good. And depending on your modality, astrologers spend more time and prep than terror courte readers do. They have to do your whole chart.

582
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:53,000
They have to figure out what they're going to talk to you about. So that service should maybe be more money. If it's a natal chart reading, you're looking at your transits for the air. And I don't do astrology. God bless those people.

583
00:42:53,000 --> 00:43:01,000
I just had a great astrology reading from someone who was violently accurate. It was really a fun experience for me to hear from the other side of the wall.

584
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:15,000
If you will, a terrible reading, you know, I have to do a little prep. I manage what I eat before and afterwards and I group like tests. So I charge enough like for my time based on my corporate rate, like my hourly rate and what I think sphere.

585
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:25,000
And people pay before they show up, I would really recommend anyone listening to this. Do not get into the like getting paid in real time or afterwards thing.

586
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:41,000
It gets weird. The session energetically stays open. People are going to not pay you. Sometimes it's going to make you feel weird. So when they book, you know, and Callen Lee acuity, whatever scheduling thing you use, you can put a little plugin in there that goes to pay pal or stripe or whatever you want to use.

587
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:51,000
And people pay when they book is a, you know, they really should pay to secure that time with you because that's your core business. So if they don't show up and they don't pay you, you're kind of upshits creek.

588
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Right. Right.

589
00:43:53,000 --> 00:44:01,000
Well, this has been all a beautiful, wonderful chat about business and food and stuff. But one thing that I want to make sure we touch on.

590
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,000
There is a.

591
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:09,000
Is my mood disturbance that came through in the words on the pages.

592
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:19,000
Well, there's actually just a case study that starts darkly funny and then escalates to something legitimately shocking, right. Talk to us about this fake exorcism.

593
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:27,000
Yeah. So there have been a bunch of these. So that was a composite case study. And I know what you're thinking. How many dozens.

594
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:41,000
And this is more a thing in Chicago. I found certain metropolitan areas than it is like here in Austin, Texas, where people go to see a fortune teller, you know, the neon sign the whole thing and they're told they have a curse or they have a blockage in their shock rates.

595
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:49,000
Why they're not, you know, successful in fertility treatments, why they're poor. They put a lot of fear and anxiety in them. And then they create a sense of urgency.

596
00:44:49,000 --> 00:45:04,000
Now in that particular case, I shared a client who happened to be a good friend of mine and still is, by the way, with another practitioner. And I don't really know what she does. And I've never looked into it. That's how I saved my what's left of my sanity is I don't try and understand everything all the time.

597
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:15,000
And for a couple weeks, you know, she had some stuff happening, you know, family illness issues at work, things like that. And was really worried she had a curse or there was a demon involved.

598
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:27,000
I was like, dude, I see you like every other day if you had a demon. I know it's well, by the way, that happens to be one of my more unfortunate skills. It's usually on on site. Like, you know, that's how that goes.

599
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:39,000
And I said, I really don't think that's the case. And sometimes life sucks. And then it stops sucking. Like this is the cycle of life. All the great writers are in this taming way. You know, everybody. This is what the human condition is about.

600
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:53,000
This other practitioner with whom I shared this friend and client told her she had a demon. A demon was attached to her. She was possessed. And so she was the vector for all this unfortunate malaise.

601
00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:07,000
Like really hitting her family and her loved ones. And so she calls me. The client doesn't says, well, so and so told me I'm possessed and I have a demon. And I was like, I was living by the way, it's middle of my work day corporate.

602
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:16,000
And I was like, God damn it. It's going to take 15, 20 minutes of my day. And I have to like undo this fear. This other person keeps kind of perpetuating.

603
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:30,000
And I was so frustrated, but we managed to land the plane. I was basically like, if in a week, you still think I gave her a bunch of things she can do. I was like, go get, go to the little Greek candle store in in Greek town next to the West loop and she, go get, go get some holding water, go get some stuff.

604
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:38,000
And I give them a little amulet thinking a little satisfied of the OCD part of your brain. The cold nurse. Dumbles feather.

605
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:48,000
Totally. Right. Yeah. Like thieves oil. And that stuff works. It actually does. I said do that. If it's still like this, or if it escalates in a week, I'll come over to your apartment.

606
00:46:48,000 --> 00:47:04,000
Well, hang out. I'll do energy work on you. I'll see if I could do a clearing or you know, but really trying to like, again, empower her. Take the fear out of it. And also get my goddamn work day back. I was actually on deadline. I'll never forget I was like, I can't do this all day. It was like a crying baby in the other room.

607
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:20,000
I can't I missed a call. And then the other practitioner who sort of causes this whole thing emailed me right after that chat and said, hey, I have a client who needs an exorcism. I need you to tell me how to do one.

608
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:30,000
And I instantly knew she's talking about my friend. So not only did she convince her of this horrible thing and put her by the way in a very, very bad.

609
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:44,000
Very, very, very uncool. But now she wants me for free to tell her how to do an exorcism for this client. And I wrote to her and call the archdiocese. Get the Vatican involved because that is the proper process.

610
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:52,000
And I know Catholic exorcists. I've interviewed them on my podcast. And I was like, you're no way equipped to handle a demon.

611
00:47:52,000 --> 00:48:04,000
And I just laid it out for her. I go, they speak at Sumerian. You're going to your cop to Greek in there. They're going to move. They're going to levitate. And like she must have after she sent that email connected with the client we shared.

612
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:16,000
And then wrote to me and was like, Oh, you know, jinxies takes these backsees. The situation sorted itself out. She must have realized that I knew. Yeah. And I knew it was her and I knew the whole game. Yeah.

613
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:28,000
So it's just so there's something mean about it's not just an ethical and long and whatever. It's like it's mean to cause that kind of internal harm to a human being that trusts you.

614
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:44,000
Trust you as a spiritual expert. It needs to stop. So if nothing else, I hope the book gives people, especially people who maybe aren't business owners in the space, but who consume the will like I'm both I own a business and I sign up for sessions.

615
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:56,000
I love it. I consider it a form of self care to be a client in this space, letting them know what bad things look like and what to look out for at a human scale level. So they go time out.

616
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:04,000
This is weird. And they know what questions to ask or how to maybe navigate it where they don't feel like they're being the bad guy in that situation. Yeah.

617
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:20,000
Yeah. Well, we got to talk about that thing you do that before you go to bed that drives me crazy because I have been trying so hard to do the thing you're asking not to do.

618
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,000
Of course. So you literally have to stop yourself from leaving your body on a daily basis.

619
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:38,000
Yeah, we're having what we in shamanism call like the big dreams where it's like you're seeing like multiple clips is in the sky. There's God's talking you. You're like, oh my God, there's going to be a flood being like that shit.

620
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,000
I get it again. Sorry.

621
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:44,000
You can't do that every night.

622
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,000
Most people can't do that at all.

623
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,000
Right. Right.

624
00:49:48,000 --> 00:50:04,000
A lot of us who, you know, it's like just touching the wound like putting in the wraps. It really builds whatever that muscle is to the point where like real life, like me doing my taxes. I was like, well, this is going to be weird and hard for me. Right.

625
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:18,000
So because my brain's just more geared to go and expand and do insane stuff. If you do this for a living and you tend to not be as in your body, especially after doing psychic work for other people all day.

626
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000
I learned this in shaman school is you say out loud yourself before you go to bed.

627
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:32,000
Not every night, but once maybe once or twice a week, like I'm not going to leave my body tonight. I'm not going to travel anywhere. I need restful sleep. My body needs to recover.

628
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,000
And I need this for my health.

629
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,000
And I felt insane.

630
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,000
I felt like a crazy person. The first time I said this out loud.

631
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:48,000
But it was the first really good night of sleep I had in a long time when I did it. And it still works. And I, what I do not a few less insane is I'll say it to my husband. I go tonight.

632
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:54,000
My intention is I'm just going to stay in my body. I'm just going to sleep. And I'm not going to have one of my crazy dreams. And he's like, OK, story.

633
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,000
It's easy.

634
00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:10,000
But it gets easier that way. And a lot of us, you know, if you're really woo, woo, you'll find that you want to hold on to something like I interviewed this amazing guy. You guys would love him. He's the head of dream studies Institute. His name's Ryan heard.

635
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:19,000
And he makes dream ambulance like little totems and people's hands who for people who have maybe night terrors or sleep paralysis.

636
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:29,000
So that they're astral travel, if you will, is unpleasant. And it helps anchor them. It's like a tactile tool to help them go. It's OK. I'm going to get back in my body.

637
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,000
Like almost like a little rope that pulls you back in from that state.

638
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:41,000
So funny as you're talking to yourself saying, I'm not going to leave my body. I'm not going to I'm doing the opposite. I'm not my body. I'm going to leave.

639
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:48,000
So what if you just you're doing it every night, you don't remember. And that's why you're tired of that.

640
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,000
Well, that's just a really mean thing that universe should do then.

641
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,000
That's it.

642
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,000
I don't think the universe is that mean things all the time.

643
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:08,000
And here's what I would say to will if you really wanted to do that, there are astral travel exercises. I can email you one that I did. I used to do group workshops in the space where you tie red ribbon around your wrist and three or hands and you do.

644
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:14,000
Like an old school European witchcraft, not black magic, just witchcraft master spell.

645
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:27,000
You like candles and you set the intention of of astral traveling or what we in shamanism we call journey to the middle world like the demimon the sort of analog world behind material reality.

646
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:35,000
It's really useful because you can find lost objects. You can spy on people if you're dating somebody and you think, you're kind of getting a little look see on the astral.

647
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:47,000
That's what I'm talking about. You can make money from you can tune energy in your home like you could see is there something weird around the house that I don't really like and you can kind of sweep it out or clear it out.

648
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:59,000
In that in that middle world journey. So it gets practical and really useful. I'll send you guys some stuff. I make a poppy flower essence called astral travel. I'll send it to you. I'll send you lucid dream.

649
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000
I've got a couple of other weird ones that seem to help.

650
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:07,000
That's awesome Rachel. Thank you. Of course, it's my pleasure. That stuff is if I could do that all the time.

651
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:18,000
I would love it. That's I think too when Karen when you ask like what do people like what are some of the mistakes they make in their assumptions or they're thinking when they get into this.

652
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:25,000
I think all of us even continually even though we know better we're like I'm going to play in the loop. I'm going to have fun.

653
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:31,000
And that's there and that's true but it's not the whole story if you want to keep doing it and paying your bill.

654
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:39,000
It's why I want people empowered with some of the information in the book so that they like that structure can actually give them more freedom.

655
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,000
Because this work is very meaningful and fun.

656
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:48,000
And so we've been talking a lot about the book and all that kind of stuff. But we should call out the fact you just mentioned tinctures and things like that.

657
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:56,000
You do a lot more than just right books right you you've got to told them is I'm very tired.

658
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:03,000
I read like I did a podcast the other day and they read just the bullet points on my bar was like oh my god I sound old and tired.

659
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,000
It's unbelievable.

660
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:16,000
Well if someone wanted to look at all the stuff that you do that you offer tinctures and teas and all kinds of stuff that you do.

661
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,000
I know that your deck is sold out but you know you might be stuck.

662
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:24,000
Well we have the flower essence that which is an Oracle deck that has all those fun plant medicines.

663
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,000
There you go.

664
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,000
That one's still available. And yeah I do one-on-one work.

665
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:38,000
So it's not all like coaching for spiritual transformation or mentoring in the business of you to just book a tarot card reading with me you can book an e-chain reading which is really elegant and fun.

666
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:45,000
It's very ancient Chinese divination system that works on the elements and forces of nature.

667
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,000
I do a bunch of stuff and I really enjoy doing shamanic energy work.

668
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,000
I'm raky certified like all the way up and down.

669
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,000
But for me that's always really restorative for me which is odd.

670
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Maybe because it's just pure energy work cutting cords moving cheer around for people.

671
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:07,000
You're raky coming through you so you're being healed as you're feeling so yeah it's really fun.

672
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:14,000
And so I do all of that so you don't have to like do a whole big commitment thing with me and I promise not to upsell your make it weird.

673
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Not of the benefits of being uncomfortable about like hard sales stuff because I just think it's gross and weird I hate when people do it to me and always smacks of desperation is you know people stick around I get to work with people in a variety of service types and then eventually like my one client after 13 years of working together she's like I think I want to do the spiritual transformation thing.

674
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:41,000
And she launched her own business and thankfully thank God she did you know and she was very intuitive.

675
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:51,000
Her company of mass layoffs right as she was getting ready to launch it wow and so she had a bug up bag ready to go packed and ready.

676
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:59,000
And so you know it's it's little things it's big things I've an Etsy shop totem readings ATX that's where all the tinctures in the flower essence deck are.

677
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:15,000
And the other thing I would say is my friend you know when I was going through my my difficult time or as we call it the troubles owns a company in Detroit called pahkaki and they make really premium like street wear hockey jerseys like merch for mega death Metallica system of a down.

678
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,000
Wow.

679
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:35,000
And we did a clothing collaboration with the art from the sold out terror deck and we are launching a summer line hand tied I'd like one of a kind one of 20 hand died shirts and things like that with the more colorful cards and I sent you guys if you put it in the show that's a promo code in the link for your listeners.

680
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,000
I will do that.

681
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:44,000
So I get to see the close tomorrow literally it's that new and that'll be up for sale soon it's like you know fun goth merch very cool.

682
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Yeah. That's been really creatively fun because you know I'm not a clothing person and so to just team up and have fun with a friend it's been a delight.

683
00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Yeah, but if you go look on your website the the artwork is really strikingly beautiful minutes it's a really cool cool designs for sure so yeah for team she pays real adult Americans in a real clothing facility that exists outside in Detroit.

684
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:28,000
One of them is her son using his 30s you know they're like a little team and they've been together for 17 years it's just the best small business and one of these things were coming out with his Freya you know the wife of Odin she's my queen of coins card in my deck we're going to make a hockey jersey for

685
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:51,000
for Christ. You want to wonder that drive it's good a bond with energy. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Well go to Rachel's website we're going to definitely add a link in our show notes for you to get all her stuff but definitely get her book because you know when you have guests on your show sometimes they write a book and you read the book you're like oh yeah it's a nice book.

686
00:57:51,000 --> 00:58:06,000
It's really it's it's actually really well written I literally laughed out loud several times so it's really not just is it entertaining but really practical so I I my hats off to you Rachel for appreciate it I really want to see like good

687
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:15,000
who based businesses like really earnest people like Karen the people you were talking about that are good at they love it I want those businesses to take market share.

688
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:27,000
I have my own selfish weird little agenda I want them to take it from like grifters and casuals and so my I've been joking using communist language I'm like we're seizing the means of spiritual production.

689
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:49,000
I want people to take that chance I think it's a good year for it I think you IP disclosures around the corner yeah we're about to hit we in the mainstream in a very new way and this is a moment to get ahead of that curve and get your stuff ready to go I'm just very excited for people definitely yeah we're too

690
00:58:49,000 --> 00:59:03,000
Rachel thank you so much for coming on the show talk to us about the business of who and will definitely add links in our show notes for people to reach out and be in touch but thank you know we're always here so thanks so much for being a friend of the show really appreciate

691
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,000
thank you.

692
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:11,000
[Music]