Can Technology Actually Expand Your Consciousness? - Jonathan Robinson Joins The Skeptic Metaphysicians LIVE!

0:00 My name is Will and I'm Karen and unlike Mulder and Scully, we've embarked on a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined a Covenant Witches. And wait, you joined a Covenant? Yep, all in the interest of fighting something. Anything! That will prove that there's something beyond this physical, three-dimensional world we all live in. This is the Skeptic Medificions. We're thrilled to have you with us again if you're watching this live or whether you're watching this after the fact. We're excited to have you. Thank you for joining us on this foray. It's only a third one, third live one.

0:41 I know. We're still kind of, you know, getting used to it. Getting our sea legs under us is what they used to say back in the olden days. Oh. Yeah. Today we are actually well-companyed. So it's not just us. You're not going to have to listen to us for the entire hour. Sure. We actually have someone that's been on the show before. He is one of our favorite guests. He has sat with notable people like the Dali Lama and Mother Teresa, Wayne Dyer and Ramdas. He has actually learned an awful lot by interviewing over a hundred spiritual teachers. And every time he comes on the show, he blows our mind. So I'm thrilled to welcome back to the show today, Jonathan Robinson.

1:24 Jonathan, it's a pleasure to see you again. How you been? I've been really good. Great to be here again. Yeah. We're really excited to have you, especially because today we're going to be talking about all the gadgets and doodads and cool stuff that there is out there now for expansion of consciousness, right? There's gadgets. There's gadgets. There's gadgets as doodads and stuff. Yeah, I have about 50 of them at my home. It's like a museum of all the new gadgets for affecting consciousness. Wow. Wow. I can't wait to dive into it because on the list of you sent me, I read the first thing and I went, that's a cool topic.

2:05 And I read the second thing and went, oh, wait, that's, oh, then with the third, oh, my, oh, okay. We're just going to talk about as many of them as we can in a time that is allied to us. So, Jonathan, what is happening in the field of consciousness that is exciting you right now? Well, every field nowadays is going through this acceleration, whether it be accounting, you know, or, or manufacturing because of AI. So, every field is going through that and consciousness is one of those. So, I have listed and we'll talk about any of these, but five areas where consciousness is going into new unexplored fields.

2:46 It's kind of like Star Trek, you know, you don't know where it's going to go. So, one of those fields is gadgets. I've been collecting these gadgets for a long time. They've generally been pretty bad in, well, thanks for the candor, Jonathan. Yeah, you know, I have money, so I spend money on it. I use it once or twice and I go, that's a piece of crap. Yeah, but in the last year or two, they've gotten a lot better. So, I actually now use them pretty consistently and there's things from everything from how to help you to sleep better, to how to tap into bliss states through EEG feedback, to photo-biomodulation, to all kind of stuff that is now starting to get, you know, that's worth it.

3:35 That makes meditation easy. So, is that what we're talking about specifically is gadgets to help you with meditation or is there other types of gadgets involved? Well, there's all kind, I mean, I'll show you a couple right now. This is called Moonbeam. You put in your hand while you're going to sleep and it expands. You probably can't see it but expands and contracts and you paste your breath to it. Now, what that does is it's a certain breath that is actually most conducive to sleep. So, for people who have a hard time sleeping, if you don't sleep well, it's hard to feel good. Yeah, so, you know, you just kind of hold this and you you breathe at the pace that it's expanding and contracting.

4:19 This thing right here is called the Sensei. It's actually a necklace that goes where your chest is and it vibrates in a certain way that tends to open your heart. So, wow. Some of them are EEG bands that give you feedback and how your brain waves are. There's a helmet that puts red light into your brain that has been shown to help with cognitive impairment like dementia but it has a lot of health benefits. There's all kinds of stuff out there now that is kind of exciting. Yeah. So, I always have a degree in anthropology. So, I love, you know, the study of cultures and the evolution and all that. So, speaking of evolution, do you have or do you have a knowledge of any really kind of older gadgets like from back in the day that were just crazy that people created to try to help them get to that conscious level?

5:12 Well, the simplest one was a talking stick. Have you ever used that in like a ceremony? You know, you make a stick and one person gets it and they talk from their heart and nobody interrupts. There's no feedback. And that was a way that ancient cultures would get really below the surface and invoke spirit. And that was a very powerful technology. Now we like the glittering electronic things but I've been to a lot of ceremonies where people have a stick like that and you see and hear stuff from them that you would never see and hear before. So, it's been amazing.

5:53 Yeah. And then if someone gets on rule, you got some to hit with. Exactly. It's a double purpose. You're bang for your buck there. So, one of the things that you had in your hand, they were you call it a sense state. I remember there was a movie. No, TV, movie a TV show, TV show, while back it was done by the, by the creators of the matrix. Uh-huh. Wukowski brothers who became sisters, I think, but they it was called sense state and it was about a group of people from all over the world who would connect with each other. Yeah. And they were like soul mates or something on those signs that they would be able to connect with each other and take over each other's bodies to give them their skill sets or things like that. So is this something that's going to make me able to do that with other people because that'd be really cool.

6:36 Well, not with this thing, but I think that show, which I think was called sense eight eight. Yes. Have machines now where you hook up like me, you and and Karen and you hear everybody's heartbeat and what happens is people's heartbeat tend to synchronize. And when your heartbeat synchronize or your breath synchronizes, you feel this strange type of connection. And actually, there's been studies shown that that can help with lepathy and things like that. So there's all kinds of of nifty things being invented now. I might be really good for a family. You know, that's so interesting because when I was little, our family used to send it, my sister and I, they would send us to Ecuador to go spend some time with my mother's family.

7:20 We'd go every summer. And I remember being a little girl and Lane and pet trying to go to sleep and I would stop my breathing several different times and change it because I wanted to at some point think that I was breathing the same as my mother. Wow. And it's a thing. I didn't know it was a thing. I was like six. Where can someone buy such a magical item? Where can you get that stuff? That item you can't forget you yet, but you know, you can look up, sense eight or look up moon bird for the other two. Although, here's something that you can do that slow tech in one of my books that became a bestseller. I talked about how you can avoid all arguments. And this technique that involves spooning with your partner and then breathing together.

8:05 And the combination of spooning, you know, where usually the man is in back the woman is in front and breathing together ends up feeling this great sense of connection. And even if you want to stay angry at your partner, what happens is you start to feel really connected and the anger goes away. Jay Leno thanked me on the tonight show for abing his marriage because he said that that actually saved his marriage. Wow. Wow. I've got another. There's two words that really help. I mean, it's like a magic. All you need is it's like you're it's like you're a world's most most important. Right. It's like the world's most powerful mantra, right? When you went to the to the story in our show.

8:46 in our show. I know two words that will immediately diffuse every situation and that is, yes, dear. - Yes dear or yes dear. - I'm wrong. - I was wrong, yeah. I mean, yeah. - Yeah because it was kinda hard to get in the mood to spoon with someone when you're mad at them. It's more like, don't touch me. - You will breathe with me. But I can imagine that that really would work. Maybe you can't be mad at someone if you're trying to breathe together. - Yeah. - There is this device, like synchronizes your hearts. You can't buy it yet. So how do you know about it? How do you find out? - Well, you know, just like the field of being a podcaster, you know, other podcasters, when you're in this field of consciousness gadgets, you learn about all the people. This guy graduated from MIT and he's a roboticist, but he wants to come up with gadgets that connect people because right now people feel so disconnected from each other. There's so much polarization.

9:47 And that's one of the reasons why I got into things like psychedelics, which is another, it's not a new gadget, but the use of them in groups, you know, I lead individual and group MDMA sessions. And that is another way to connect. So you got to be responsible about this stuff, but there's a real need for people to feel that sense of community. And if it's a gadget or psychedelic or a workshop, those are all helpful things. - Yeah. Something that recently happened, I'm sure you're aware of it that I think really helped kind of give us as a country a little bit of that sense of community with the piecemunks, I guess, the clock for peace, they weren't piecemunks, but we called them like the piecemunks.

10:37 - The piecemunks. - I stalked them on Facebook and we actually got to go see them, you know, by the side of the road and they were like, it was fun. It was one night, it was five o'clock at night. I'm like, there's going to be enrichment tomorrow. That's two hours away, everyone. Getting the car, we got the dog because we couldn't find someone to watch it that late night and we drove to like terrible weather and yeah, we got to see them. It was incredible. And everyone just kind of rallied, like they really, they were like the gadget, like a moving, living, breathing gadget that I think helped really kind of bring that sense of peace and community to everyone. - I think they might take offense of being called a gadget. - Well, you know. - One aspect of technology which I found interesting is Zoom, where I call Zoom meditation.

11:19 So there's teachers in India and Ireland and Europe that will meditate at certain times and you can go on their zooms and meditate with them. And I talked about skeptic. I said, well, this is total BS. - Right. You read my mind. - Yeah. Now I've meditated with a lot of goons in India and you can definitely feel their energy. - But in person though, right? Well, you're there. - Yeah. And that made some sense at least, you know, you're in their energy field or whatever. So when this happened over Zoom, I thought, well, you all try it, but this is not really going to happen. - You didn't pay any of that. - I was overwhelmed with their energy.

12:01 - Really? - Yeah. No, my experience and my beliefs were definitely at odds. So I had all my friends go to these Zoom meditations and I said, tell me if you're experiencing anything. And every single one said, yeah, I'm blown away. So then we tried blind experiments like, you know, I won't know if they're meditating now or not, you know, have this teacher send energy or not. And I could guess 100% of the time when they were sending energy. - 100%. - Yeah. - Wow. - It wasn't subtle. I mean, depends on the teacher, but some gurus, when they send energy, it's like a fire hose.

12:41 - Not like a circle. - Are these zooms that are available publicly? - They are. - And some of them are free. I'll give you a couple of websites that people I respect that do this for free. They have one or two each week. And there'll be a couple hundred people from 50 countries on the Zoom. And I have a podcast called Awareness Explorers and my co-host is very skeptical about this stuff. - I mean, it's more so than you. - You know, right. - Yeah. - And so I finally got him to go to one of them and he said, you know, how was it, Brian? And he said, I don't think there's anything there.

13:23 I just happened to have the best meditation of my life, but I don't think it was due to him. Right. It just by sheer luck could happen. - That's quite the dance. - Now did he try it again? Is that he recreate the experiment? - He keeps going. - Oh. - Interesting. - He doesn't like to admit that he's not doing anything. He doesn't like to admit that it's the guy. He said, well, you know, it just fits into my calendar and it's a good time. I always have a good meditation. I don't know if anything's happening, but he's religious about it now. - Oh, that's funny. - Well, no, so if you give me those links, we'll add them to the show notes. So if you're interested in checking this out, because I am, I'm going to go and check it out because that sounds interesting.

14:05 - So when you said that, you could feel like a hundred percent of the time when they were meditating. And then it was like, I was like, what did that feel like? Was it like a mental mindset feeling? Or was it like a physical, tingly feeling? What was that like? - Well, first to mention, I am pretty sensitive to energy. I've done a lot of meditation, but I would call it like extremely deep peace. So I'm not able to really function for about half an hour afterwards and I can't move because I feel like I am in an ocean of very deep, peaceful, silent energy.

14:46 That would be my best description of it, but other people experience different things. Some people experience Kundalini, some people experience it more like a loving feeling. - I seem to have lost that. - You lost that lovely deal. - Sorry. That would be a great title for a song, you know? - Oh, you know. - It would be. - So, I'm sorry, you were saying, I mean, didn't wrote you. - Well, so, you know, it's pretty nice to be able to tap in and these people offer it for free. And I think, you know, everybody's different. So, you know, some people like chocolate ice cream, some people like vanilla ice cream, between the three teachers that I do meditations, some I like more than others.

15:31 So you kind of have to try it out and see what works for you. That's true for any technique. - Sure. Yeah. And it's funny because I went to yogaville. There's a, it's an ashram here in Virginia, a while back. And they have this big lotus building that it was closed for repairs, except they would open it up every once in a while and they'd bring the bell and it was open to everybody, just rushed to it. I was wondering, why is everybody in such a hurry to get, I mean, meditate here or there and it's not a big deal. I was finally able to make it one day. Like, because you have to really get to rush. They shut the doors after a certain amount of time. So they finally made it in there and sure enough, I don't know whether it's the shape of the building or the amount of people meditating in there or what it is, but the energy is built up so strongly that it was one of some of the best meditations I've done was in that lotus flower building.

16:21 - Yeah. - I mean, I'm assuming it's, it's maybe a little bit of both, right? So the build up of the energy and the shape of the building itself that, well, you know, the first step to wisdom and to admit that we actually know probably almost nothing and that what makes most things work is what I call PFM. Do you know what PFM stands for? - I'm waiting with baited breath. - Well, it's what makes most things work, your iPhone, zoom, everything. - Yes, I do know. - You're a friggin' magic. - Yeah, well, thanks for cleaning it up for us. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know what? I'll take it. - I love to believe in magic.

17:03 It's very seldom shown to me. - And it is. You just don't, you just think of something else. - But when, I am labeling it something else. I'm, right, caring calls them little miracles. I call them coincidences or magic. - Well, it's interesting, you know, I just finished, I wrote a book. It's out now called "Execupe Couples" and I'm doing my next book, which I haven't titled yet, but it's about magic and miracles. - Cool. - So I've been writing down all the magic and miracles I've experienced in my life. I thought, I thought there was be like 10 or 15. I've been around some very powerful people and it ends up up to 82.

17:43 - Wow. - And they keep coming to me. Now some of them are like gobsmacking. You can't in any way have any other interpretation, right? - Well, that's a really bizarre coincidence that just happened. - Yeah. - Well, there's a whole spectrum. - Right. - Now, now I was, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I was a psychic studies major, UC Santa Barbara. - Psychic studies. No one don't think you ever did. - Yeah. So I was in the scientific study of people with extraordinary abilities. They could, you know, have out-of-body experiences. They could affect machines like random number generators and all kinds of things.

18:28 So I started to get used to that. There are these abilities. They're rare. But I often ask people, have you ever experienced something you couldn't explain? Something that struck you as like miraculous or like was beyond rationality? I've done that for a lot of years. And about 70% of people say that they have had such an experience. - Hmm. - I usually love talking about it. - Yeah. - Because there's no avenue for, you know, nobody ever asked you that question. - Right. - Ends up, I've had a lot of them. What really strikes me as amazing is that I still have this materialistic worldview where I think things are, you know, happen the way that, you know, you and I tend to think.

19:13 But then something will happen like my, my, when thing happens, my glass got transported through the air into an impossible location with a bunch of people watching. And then you go, you look at then you go, I guess I really have no idea what's going on here. - Okay. We got it. We got, you got to go a little deeper on that way. - I'll get the story because it's a pretty amazing story. People who know me and I barely believe this myself. So I will understand your skepticism, but you'll see how this unfolds. I have what's called PK ability, meaning I can affect random number of generators.

19:58 And that's been done under laboratory conditions and some people have that ability. So I can make 60 heads out of 100 rather than 50. - Wow. Now I know how you got your money for you. - I got gadgets. - A lot of them. - Vegas, Vegas, baby. - Vegas is very good to me. At least until now, now they know you're trying. - Sometimes weird things happen around me and my wife and I, we just call it the Gremlin because it happens like once every six months that something moves into a place where really how could, how did my keys get into the salad drawer?

20:38 You know, is stuff like that. So anyways, I'm going into, my wife and I are going into the Senate in Ottawa, Canada. And they have really intense security there. So you have to, you know, take off your belt and things like that, just like an airport. But the guy asked me to take off my glasses and put it in the tray. And I said, they never asked that in the airport and they said, "Well, the security here is more intense to get into the Senate." So I take off my glasses and put in the tray. It goes through their X-ray machine or whatever it is. My wife is already through, she's in the Senate. But my glasses don't appear on the other end of it.

21:19 And the guy notices that they're not there and he says, "Your glasses must have gotten lost in the X-ray thing." And they stop the machine and they're looking for them. And they can't find them after like five minutes and they're apologizing, "This has never happened before." I hear this a lot. This has never happened before. And I'm figuring, "Okay, my glasses will show up in an impossible location soon because that sometimes happens." So I'm there like 10 minutes and there's a big line now that people waiting and they have five guys looking at the machine. They're taking a part. They can't find glasses. I'm just sitting there, can't believe it. And it's like the, you're, the drive-through in McDonald's where your people really mad at you in the air.

22:03 Exactly. Finally, my wife who's in the Senate calls me, my phone did come through and she says what's going on at the Gremlin, we call it the Gremlin, made my glasses disappear and she says, "Well, I know where they are." I say, "What? Oh, where are they?" And she said, "Well, when you didn't show up, I went into the zipper part of my purse to call you and that's where your glasses are." Wow. And I go, I go, wow, and then I go, "What do I tell these guys? Because I can't tell them that, they'll cart me away."

22:46 So I tell them, "Hey, no, that's, you know, I have 20 of those pairs, don't worry about, you know, it's not a big deal and they let me go." My wife has a pair in her purse right now, is that right? But that was a good example of like, I have no explanation for that and it was under a pretty controlled situation where a lot of people and even video of it, so we have no explanation as to how that happens, but that type of stuff happens to me about every, every six months to a year. Have you considered that maybe it is an actual Gremlin that keeps moving stuff around or do you think it's just a universe playing first? It's an interesting question, there was a teacher in Indian named Sai Baba.

23:29 I know Sai Baba very well. Well, I met somebody who is Sai Baba's assistant for 10 years. Oh wow. And I asked him, does he do, like, is he really able to manifest stuff thin air? And he said, "No, no, he doesn't, it's all a trick." And I had seen Sai Baba do that where I am a man amateur magician and I was like a foot away from his hand and there was no false thumb or anything. It looked totally real to me. He said, "No, no, he doesn't manifest it. What happens is there's a ghost that delivers it to him the moment he needs it."

24:14 And he said it the way that you and I would say, "No, somebody, like a person, hands it to him in that moment." Like, he didn't see that as magical at all. Oh, it's quite explainable. He takes it from the warehouse a two miles away and it goes to the lures at the second he needs it. And I said, "Oh, that's nice to know that there's a rational explanation." It's not magic at all. Right, that clears everything up. That's like the story with the nut. Yeah, no, I was thinking exactly that. Yeah. We had a story similar to that. It happened a little while ago where we were doing a live show, an interview on location is what we're doing. That was the live show. It was an interview on location.

24:55 And when we take all of our gear, the microphones are connected to these arms by this nut that goes in between the two. And it's probably the size of maybe like a quarter. It's pretty thick, but as I was putting on Karen and I were sitting down in chairs just like we are now. And you know, when you're sitting down, your pockets kind of, it was, yeah, your pockets kind of fold in on themselves. So you're kind of compressed in a way. As I'm putting the nut in to place, it falls out of my hands and Karen and I both watch it fall, bounce and vanish. Ah.

25:35 And it's on a white carpet. Yeah. So it's not like dark, hideable clothes. Like you're a white carpet. Yeah. So what do you do with that? What's your mind do with that? It's like you're saying this is friggin' impossible. Oh, right. It gets worse. Yeah. Where it grows on our hands and knees, like running our fingers to the carpet, looking under couches, there was a stone fountain. I literally took all the stones apart. People, we had an audience. They were helping us look for this thing. They're lifting up chairs. It was embarrassing, honestly, because we can't do this interview. What we ended up doing the interview holding the microphone in the arm. Yeah. And so after the interview was over and I felt bad, but I mean, couldn't find this thing.

26:16 I was like, I'm going to have to go home and go have to buy another nut or something, figure this out. One of the audience members comes to me and she says, because I guess it's an audience full of magical people. And that's it. And she says, I'm being told you you should check your pockets. Well, it would be impossible. We were sitting down. Our pockets are folded on themselves. There's no way enough would-- It bounced the back way. It bounced the back way. It disappeared and ended up in my pocket. So just to appease her, I put my hands in my pockets and I froze. Because when I pulled my hands out of my right hand pocket, the damn nut was in my hand. I have no explanation for that. Other than the Gremlin.

26:57 Well, you've earned my Gremlin without asking. It's a busy Gremlin. Yeah. It's crazy. And my wedding ring-- we say that this house is eating things because my wedding ring just disappeared. My glasses disappeared for a while. It was found in one of my shoes. My glasses. Hi. Yes. I think in Gremlin, they're there to just kind of remind us that the world isn't magical place and they have a sense of humor. So they'll put in your pocket or whatever it is. And then we go back to our-- oh, the world isn't magical. Everything's explainable as our-- because that's the culture or the cult we're in.

27:39 The culture we're in. And it's important to be reminded. That's why I like asking people that question. Have you ever had anything unexplainable or miraculous? And get those reminders, not just from me, where I've had 80 of them, but already two of them, but from other people as well, like your story. Well, I think it's interesting also, because people tend to think about miracles and you think of the big things in the movies like The Red Sea or being parted or massive things. But there's all these little things that can happen that are totally miracles. I'm having situations now where the universe or whoever will give me something right before I need it. Right at the moment I need it.

28:20 I was making coffee the other day and I realized I was out of milk and I'm like, gosh, like six months ago, I had bought some creamer for some reason. I don't remember why. I was making something and it required it in the recipe. And it was in the pantry, kind of like shoved behind the shelf. I'm like, I think I still have that. I don't think I use the whole thing. So I go to walk into the pantry and I turn down the hallway where the pantry is and right in the middle of the hallway is that thing of creamer. Wow. I haven't used this thing in six months or however long it is incredible. So I get these little things like here you go. Yeah. So the universe, I'm going to need about $1.8 million tomorrow. So just putting it up right now. Dare waste fine. Forever you want to put it. All right. So Karen had a situation happen not long ago that showed me, not even the coffee thing, but the milk thing is the thing that's the most.

29:07 But do you think something like this is that people talk about like timeline shifting or universes that were jumping universes or things like that? Could that be the explanation for the Grumlin? Well, yeah, it could be. It could be ghosts. It could be people from the planet clearly as I don't know. I mean, you know, take the UFO phenomena is interesting in that way because it makes no sense that somebody's traveled from, you know, a hundred light years to here and there's all these different species and things that makes no sense. But currently the US government has said there are technologies that we are seeing that we do not have and we know nobody else has.

29:55 So basically they're saying there's aliens on earth. So they're not saying Italians, but it's just saying, you know, that's not human technology. Exactly. Exactly. And so it remains, right? Non-human remains, but that man in Congress testified. Right. Right. So that's another example of we don't really know what's going on. We always think, we always think we know. You know, in the 15th century, they always thought that, or you know, 2000 is to see, they thought lightning was a sign from God to do things or he clips his brain, that we always have explanations. The explanations usually are wrong. Right.

30:36 Right. Well, I like to think that we're shifting realities because I can't explain a lot of the whole, I went to Mandela effect stuff. There's so much of that out of the world that I just can't, I can't think of any other way, especially this thing that happened to you with milk. Yeah, that's right. Because that was in, you were in mid action. So play the milk story real quick. We'll have gone to the grocery store and he picked up a few things for me and I texted him. One of the things was a thing of milk because we were out. Yeah, no bread. So my daughter is pretty much the only one that drinks milk and I think I was making something and I needed to put some in a recipe.

31:18 So he's upstairs and I go to the refrigerator and I grab the milk and it's like almost, almost all the way empty. I pick it up and it's like the weight and I'm like, what the heck? There's no way she drank half a quart of milk in 15 minutes and I would have noticed. So obviously, Will Moses. Obviously, I can't believe Will, but this is, you know, people, there was that trend where they're opening ice creams and licking it and putting the lids back on and all this stuff. I'm like, oh my God, someone opened the milk, drank a bunch and we'll never notice. Yeah, right. Well, you don't usually do the grocery shopping. So I'm thinking of this and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm walking over because now I'm going to have to throw this way and as I'm walking to the counter, it's getting heavier and heavier and heavier. I'm thinking this whole thought process about it.

31:59 I can't believe he bought this empty carton of milk or this half of empty, by the time I get to the counter, it's full. Yeah. Totally full and the thing it was sealed, but like I swear to God, it was empty, I picked it up and it was like, it was the weirdest thing ever. Yeah. I love those moments and they really need to be reminders and stay in the unknown. So your skeptical mind doesn't just crap on it. One of the things I like is listening to people's near-death experiences because that's also something that we'll all experience. But there's so many people now who've had these similar experiences that show that the world and what human life is and reincarnation is very different than what we're taught.

32:50 And I don't know it's true, but I love being in the mystery. I don't know it's true with the aliens. I don't know it's true with Saibaba. I don't know it's true with my glasses. But maybe that's a good place to be because you're like a child. You're more open to whatever is going on here. And it's just a better, it's more fun. Yeah, it is more. It's like a more exciting way to live than everything is explained away. But then you have minds like mine that, like Jonathan, there was a point where I was very much into magic and every single magic trick was a trick.

33:32 Yeah. So you go through life thinking, okay, what's the trick? Like how did that happen? And you will tie yourself into a pretzel trying to explain in a materialistic way how that Mill Carton could have been empty and then filled up. You know, because they even, they had a magic trick where you have an empty glass and as you're putting it on the ground, it fills up. Right. So there's gotta be a way. Someone put a trick, Mill Carton in our refrigerator. That's all I can think about. David, who wasn't doing anything one day, you saw your house. That's our house. And this will really get them going. I have one name, not to do that. The gravel travel over to our house. Well, when you have a website or a podcast called Skeptic Gold Metaphysician, you know, or whatever, that that's going to attract those types of people.

34:25 Yeah, yeah. I brought a major change in name to leave me alone. Oh, no. That's weird. That was weird. Okay. So he said that and our whole computer screen just went black. Yes. We thought we lost you. Nope. It was just your own. It was the universe. Okay. Yeah. No, be careful what you asked for. Just kidding. Exactly. Right. So we've talked about these due dads and gadgets and stuff like that. There's also, I mean, we kind of slightly somewhat sort of touched on the psychedelic consciousness expansion that you'll, I mean, you use MDMA in for a lot of different reasons, not specifically consciousness expansion, or do you?

35:12 Well, I use it for whatever will help the person I'm working with. It's, you know, it could be for trauma or anxiety or work with a lot of couples. It was originally a couple's therapy drug and when it was legal in the 70s, that's how it got its name that XC because brought two people into a static place that would heal their relationship really quickly. All right. And after a while, other people discovered it other than therapists and it, you know, became part of the rave scene and the whole thing, which then became much more of a couple's drug after that again because people became, they're circling around there. Yes. But, you know, I'm a former psychotherapist.

35:56 I do a lot of therapy now with that drug because you can do two years of therapy in an afternoon. It's just very efficient. If you're guided properly, so that's what those books are about and it's really moving work. Couples therapy, a lot of people are having trouble with couples now. It's a hard time for couples and unfortunately, couple counseling is a long, slow slog for most couples, whereas, you know, if you take XC together, you have a five hour therapy session, you can often handle all those issues that have been keeping you annoyed each other and it's just a great, we need the best tools now because it's a stressful time.

36:39 So whether it's a gadget or a psychedelic or a new technique or the other thing that's going to affect consciousness a lot is AI. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, 25% of Americans are using AI for mental health now. How does that work? Because I don't really understand that because I would think it would be anti mental health. No, you go to chat GPT and you just use this as a therapist, you say, you know, I'm having trouble with anxiety and my partner is doing this. So what can I do to feel better and it will give you really good results most of the time. You know, I've worked and I said, wow, that's, that's what I would say, you know, wow.

37:21 And I charge more. Right. Way more. I sure. Wow. When it comes to MDMA therapy, the couples therapy, you mentioned in the five hour session, you sit down and you work through all these things that you're having, these issues that you're having, how do you get them to stop dancing with the light sticks for all that time? That's why I want to know because that's all I don't want to do. I mean, that's what a friend's a mind wanted to do when they were on MDMA. People often are surprised that they enjoy doing a five hour deep dive therapy session. You know, it's a very flexible, like a Swiss army knife. It's very flexible.

38:02 If you want to do the best therapy session of your life, I tell the story, which is pretty funny. My parents always asked me, why are you working with this, you know, illegal drug? And I said, well, you know, you really got to know what it does. It's pretty amazing. And I said, and they said, okay, can we try it? Now they're conservative. And I was surprised. I said, yeah, yeah, I'd love to give it to you. So I gave them the drug, told them how to get a nice set in setting. A year later, I asked them if they took it and they said, yeah, yeah, we took it. And I said, what happened? And they said, it didn't, there was no effect. It didn't work. You know, we waited like 20 minutes and nothing happened.

38:45 Well, it takes about 45 minutes for it to take effect. So I said, what happened after the 20 minutes? Their eyes lit up and they said, well, we had nothing planned that evening. So we sat down on the couch and ends up, we had the best night of our entire mirror. We talked about how much we love each other and how grateful we were. And we'd had some arguments the prior week. And we worked all that out in a couple of hours with them in the magazine. And then we cuddled on the couch. You only disappoint me. It was a drug never took effect. [laughter] Not bad. Not bad for the whole time. Of course, that's the effect of the drug. But it really just makes you feel like you're most loving, open, non-defensive self, which is the best way to do therapy.

39:32 And whether it be AI or psychedelics or gadgets, we need all the help we can get right now. And people who are making use of these evolutionary tools, I think, are handling the stresses of modern-day life a lot better. So, AI is being used for mental health purposes now, like you mentioned, all that kind of stuff. What do you thought on it for spiritual guidance? Can AI do that? Well, I recently took a retreat in which they had a, what's called an "adetation bot." And you tell them you're right in there or you speak to it, what your current meditation experiences, as much detail as possible.

40:18 It gives you, you know, I've been around a lot of meditation teachers, a lot of really famous ones. This bot was better than any of those teachers. It was modern. A slice? It was more nuanced. It was actually better advice. I was just floored, like, "Oh, my God." Wow. Well, that's interesting because there was an app that I tried a while ago. I forgot what it's called now, but it was this incredible meditation app. Yeah. It was so exciting because it would take you on these journeys and it was an entire year's worth of stuff. It was like, it's a very specific track you go on. So I started doing it. And after a while, I started, like, this sounds very, I don't know, something weird about, it turns out it, it's all AI.

41:06 Yeah. And I didn't realize it. And I put, I was not really dropping in that well because I don't know if the, the, the tone wasn't right or the speed at which it spoke or the, I don't know what it was, but something was clinging me in that this was not for me. I ended up leaving the app because every single one was a different AI meditation teacher and it just didn't feel authentic. Well, we used the same term AI for what's happening now and what happened a year ago. And they're not that similar. Maybe like, you know, if I confused the two of you, you know, I didn't know the time.

41:50 Yeah. Yeah, you look so much alike and everything. I mean, you're both red faced, you know, star care. So AI is getting about twice as smart every six months, which is a little, a little scary. Yeah. So I remember doing a meditation by maybe eight months ago, a year ago, I thought, this is crap. This isn't helpful at all. And the one I did last month, it was like, that's a completely different technology. Interesting. Yeah. Well, what people don't know is that when we started the show, we were actually humans now. This is, you're talking about two AI's right now. That's pretty cool. It's a pretty far advanced. It's pretty convincing, but I knew there was something going on.

42:36 Right. We were way funnier now than we were back then. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and Karen were never that funny. That's true. Right. Oh my gosh. I'm going to do things. We're funny now. Hey. Sorry. That's what I'm taking by it. So then you think that AI's getting to the point, we'll eventually get to the point where it will completely replace spiritual leaders. Well, I think there's always going to be a segment of the population that wants the human interaction. And I think that there's something there that, you know, goo is consent energy and there can be like a mother, father, and a parent child relationship that can be useful or a certain type of devotional energy that you can have towards a teacher or guru.

43:25 I certainly had that with my teacher. But in terms of information and specifics, I think AI will replace that just because it can do it better, faster, cheaper and more convenient. There's now these Facebook glasses, and the future is that you'll just be talking to your glasses. Like, you know, what do I need to know now to handle this situation? Or I want to ask this woman on a date, what's your advice? So just give you that information right then and there. That's the future. And that's not that far off. Well, what if you don't wear glasses? And then you'll just wear apple AirPods and apple.

44:11 That's just really incredible. I don't know how I think I'm going to be in that school that prefers the human aspect of it. I don't know. I mean, or really, it's not one or the other, you know, it's not like because you eat pizza, you can't have a salad. You're going to have pizza and a salad. You can have a human and AI. And they each have their strengths and they each have their weaknesses. Yeah. I've been a long time lifelong fan of science fiction. And I was telling Karen you in the day, we are, we're living in the world that we saw on movies and televisions 30 years ago. We're living it. And I was just sitting here waiting for the flying cars.

44:52 For me, the flying cars would say we made it to the future. Well, there's no flying cars, but there's everything else around me. There's some completely-- Yeah, we don't want the food in the pills. We don't want the food in the pills. We have like this, your lobster dinner. I like eating too much, yeah. But I've been blind to everything is going on around me. We are in the future. We just don't have flying cars. So where's my damn flying cars? That's all I want to know. Well, they actually do have them in Dubai now. They do have flying cars? Yeah. You know, their drones can get two people and they're completely computer controlled. And yeah, they exist. Just put flying cars to Dubai and you'll find them. Oh, my God. And they have the people with taxis, right in California in LA, I think?

45:36 But then they'll fly though. Well, I know, but they don't have any people driving them. That's pretty impressive, too. That is impressive? Yeah, that is. Well, you know, whatever happens we get used to. So you're talking-- I don't even know where you are, but we're having a conversation like you're right here. Yeah. And you know, at first time you do this, you go, well, that's amazing. Now it's like, you know, there's a glitch for one second, you think, well, this piece of crap, what do you want to hold back? That's true. Right? Yeah. That's where the most powerful mantra comes in, right? Yeah. You gotta be thankful for everything. Yeah, I think so. Jonathan, is there anything that we haven't talked about? You want to make sure that you call out because we've talked, we've written a whole gamut of stuff.

46:16 I don't want to forget something. Well, you just mentioned that like gratitude is a method as that we need really simple methods nowadays. And I'm kind of a method junkie. I collect methods like some people collect baseball cards, especially fine ones that can be done in 20 seconds or less useful. So in a prior episode, we talked about the thank you mantra that you say thank you for this thing. And you take five seconds, you feel your heart and you say thank you to God or the universe or whatever. And that's powerful medicine that we need because we do take this for granted. Once we leave this podcast, we'll go to the refrigerator.

46:59 Well, they didn't have those a hundred years ago. And then I'll turn on YouTube and there's 20 billion videos I can watch for free. I mean, that's pretty amazing. But if you don't take a moment to feel grateful for it, then it all passes you by. Another mantra used, and this mantra to create immediate distance from your thoughts. Because I don't know about your thoughts, but sometimes my thoughts bother me. They, it's stupid stuff. They get focused on, on, you know, the politics and, you know, that loop. Yeah, you get that loop. So if you say this mantra three times in the right tone of voice, it really helps stop that loop.

47:41 And it sounds like this. Blah, blah, blah. Does that really work? Because I'm going to try it. That's what happens is you're saying to those that looping thought, you know, I know your story. It's not even that interesting now. Just shut the hell up. I love that. You come with all the wisdom, John. That's why I love having you on the show. That is a magical, I mean, where do you find it? Under scroll somewhere? And the backwards of Africa and outback somewhere? No, it's an interesting story how I came upon that one. All right. Which is one of the miracles.

48:21 So, you know, I've taken a fair amount of psychedelics in my time and I always, for me, it's just just very relaxing, beautiful. And I've seen very normal other than I'm blissed out. So a friend of mine who guides these trips says, I want to give you a lot of psychedelics. So you know, in the psychedelic world, five grams of mushrooms is considered a heroic dose. All right. So she said, I want to start you on ten grams of mushrooms. And then I'm going to give you a massive shot of ketamine. You won't be able to talk. Wow. Okay. That sounds interesting. So I get, I take these drugs and I'm talking the whole time, but it's more like channeling, which I never had done before.

49:05 And what comes out of my mouth is a being that says, I want to offer these methods to the world. And one of the methods was blah, blah, blah. It sounds like me on a Friday night after too many drinks. We are stopping you about politics. That's true. That's awesome. Thank you, Jonathan, for coming on again. We have the time flies every time we're with you. We have so much fun with you. I know you've got a couple of websites. Want to make sure that people pay attention to if someone wanted to reach out, learn more about you, do you show what, how can people do that?

49:45 Well, there's the magical way to mine, Vulcan Mind Mild. But if you want more traditional way, let's see the enlightenment project.net or XTC as medicine.com. And then I do a podcast where I interview spiritual leaders and that's awareness explorers. That's the name of the podcast. All right. Well, if you want to reach out, can reach me through any of those, any of those websites. Okay. If you're watching the video, you will have seen the websites magically appear on screen. But if you're only listening, go to our show notes. They're all going to be late and they're easy for you to find.

50:27 You just go to skepticmanabosition.com, go to Jonathan's episode page. You'll see those links late in there. So it's easy for you to connect. Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on and spending some time with us. Yeah. So fun and keep asking people about the unexplained miraculous things in their life. Once you get surrounded by that, you start to look at the world like, what is going on around here? You're right. I think we need to focus on that more. So I'm going to. I'm going to. Maybe that's like the final question of it. Are interviews. Oh, I like that idea. Yeah. Thank you. Jonathan. Yeah. We're totally stealing your idea. Yeah. Then just so we're clear here. We're going to be asking every one of our guests now. What magical thing has happened to you? But I think actually I'm going to start carrying out a little notebook in my pocket and start writing down.

51:10 That's a good idea. You used to do that night. I forgot. Great. Because I only came up with like a dozen originally and then they kept on coming to me like, oh yeah, and then, and then my wife would tell me, well, how about this? And, you know, soon I had a whole book full. Yeah. That's the same thing happens to me with my keys. In my wife's ear, what about the keys? I don't know. All right. Jonathan, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure. We look forward to the next one because I know it will be not long from now. Sounds good. Take care. Thank you guys for watching, discussing the musicians. We will be back again next month, second Tuesday of the month. You never know.

51:51 Might just be carrying out. It might be some other magical guest. Stay with us and you will find out. Until next, we'll see you on the next one. Ciao. [MUSIC] (gentle music)