There are hundreds .... even thousands of people claiming to be legitimate psychic mediums and channelers out there. But how can you tell if someone claiming to be able to receive messages from beyond is ACTUALLY speaking with our dearly departed....or just trying make you THINK they are? Enter the Freedom Family Foundation's Medium Evaluation Certification System!
The Skeptic Metaphysician
How to Tell If a Medium Is Legit
"85 to 90% of all practicing mediums today cannot do what they claim. That's not saying they're all fraudulent. Although a small percentage are, I'm saying that they have some ability as do we all in varying degrees, but they have very little ability to communicate with the dead or no ability. "
-- Bob Ginsberg
About our Guest:
Bob Ginsberg started researching the evidence for survival of consciousness soon after his daughter died in 2002.
Devastated by the loss, he needed science to tell him if she still existed in some form.
In 2004 Bob and his wife Phran founded Forever Family Foundation, a global not for profit that educates the public about evidence that we are more than our physical bodies.
Bob hosts the Signs of Life radio show, is past editor of Signs of Life Magazine, heads the foundation’s Medium Evaluation Certification Program, writes a blog at beyondthefivesenses.com., and is the author of The Medium Explosion.
Bob, Phran and the foundation are currently featured in the Netflix Docuseries Surviving Death.
Sadly, Phran passed to the Spirit Realm September 22, 2020.
Will: [00:00:00] I know I say it all the time. I I'm excited about our next guest, but I don't know if I've ever been this excited about a guest before
We're going to revisit our old friend about life after death, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. our next guest not only. Was featured. He, his wife and his foundation were featured on the Netflix docu-series surviving death, but he also heads the foundation's medium evaluation certification program.
You know what that
Bob Ginsberg: means? I don't, it
Will: means that he checks out whether a medium is a fraud or not. Yeah.
Karen: So this is
Will: right up your alley. This is right. Exactly.
My name is will, and unlike Mulder and Scully, both. So we've embarked on a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown
Karen: ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined the coven of witches.
Will: Wait, you joined a coven.
All in the interest of finding something, anything that will prove that there's something beyond
Will: this physical three dimensional [00:01:00] world we all live in. This is the skeptic med physicians.
Will: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the skeptic metaphysicians, welcome to the show. Bob Ginsburg, Bob, thank you so much for coming on the show
Bob Ginsberg: today. Well, thank you. It will. And Karen, I'm happy to be with you today.
Will: we've got a lot, a lot to talk about, but let's set the table first and foremost. I know that you started researching the evidence of the survival of the consciousness very soon after your daughter died in 2002, very tragically.
Bob Ginsberg: Well, you know, it's an, it's kind of an interesting story for people.
The events of that day were that at three o'clock in the morning on September 1st, 2002. Just shot up in bed at three o'clock in the morning and just started shaking and trembling. And I said, what's the matter, what's the matter? And she said something horrible is going to happen today. And I said, what do you mean something?
Can, what do you mean? You know, should I, I can't tell you exactly, but something devastating is going to happen today. So, you know, [00:02:00] As a parent with three children, I did, what most parents would do is I was on guard, you know, I mean, they didn't really believe in premonitions or pre cognition or any of these things, but.
We were married a long time. My wife and I, and there were many times together when she would have these things, they were all good things, but every time she'd have one of these visions or feelings, it would always play out exactly the way she said. So logic told me that if she was right, then she could be right now.
And I, I watched over my three kids during the day. One of them. Preparing to go back to college the next day and my middle child had just started a college career and my youngest one was working at a part-time job waiting to go back to high school the next day, and to make a long story short. I let my guard down at night.
And we were before of us were at a restaurant. We had two cars at what the two kids take, one of the cards, home and cars home. And then we lived in a rural area and one road [00:03:00] in and one road out. And my wife and I were like two minutes behind them. And we came up with. An accident and it was them and my wife my daughter didn't survive her injuries and my son was seriously injured.
And um, eventually, you know, when it came, when I came to realize my son was in a coma, he came out of a calmer. And when I realized that he was, we were going to, we weren't going to lose him. You know, as you would expect, I was in a state of shock for, for a period of time. And then about a month later, I said, wait a second.
I, I remembered that morning. I said, what, how did Fran know? You know, she knew you couldn't tell me. She didn't know she was shaking. She was trembling. And she knew, as being a left-brain. Thinker. I became obsessed with trying to find out how she knew. And I started traveling across the United States meeting with medical doctors and scientists and researchers, surgeries that studied consciousness, because I want them to find out a, if there were credible people that Henny had any [00:04:00] real evidence for this.
And then to answer my own questions,
Will: you know, as a possible
Bob Ginsberg: that she's still survived,
Will: my daughter still survived
Bob Ginsberg: in some form. You know, I was uh, where I suspect you, you might have come from, you know, well, I mean, I, I questioned everything. I wasn't a closed-minded skeptic. I was an open-minded skeptic.
Fortunately, I think it's all, it's important for all of us to be open-minded skeptics very
Will: much, I am. That's exactly how, I mean, I w I want to believe so. I am open-minded, but I need to see it for real, so I,
Bob Ginsberg: can relate. How
Karen: did your wife feel about you traveling around talking to these experts?
Bob Ginsberg: Well, as you know, people grieve very differently even in the same household she was Mo was more of a spiritual person. She's was interested in science, but. To her, there was no need because science wasn't going to tell her what you already knew. I mean, she had this deep inner knowledge, none of which I possess, you know, so she understood that I needed this, the science portion of it.
[00:05:00] And you know, I mean, we could talk about it, but, you know, eventually we w you mentioned, we formed this foundation for a family foundation and became a global not-for-profit organization, but I would, I admit. When I started the foundation with my wife, I didn't do it to help people. I mean, that's different now, very different, but I was just looking for a way for me to survive for me to, to come to some sort of a meaning and purpose and understanding.
And eventually, I mean, the evidence that I uncovered just from simple research was compelling, you know, and then it just kept pushing me further and further and further. And I'd say, A good seven years before I relented. And I just sat back and said, wait a second, you know, just. If you, if you follow the, the data and you follow the evidence, at some point, you have to accept it, you know, which is something that some scientists never do.
And so now I think I'm on that, the point, I think people go through [00:06:00] a period of hope with a, when you talk about the afterlife, they hope there's an afterlife, but what they're really saying is that. And when they say they believe, they're really saying that they hope they haven't seen any evidence and you know, maybe their religion or their, or their teachers told them that this is the way it is, but they're not quite sure.
And some people move from hope to belief and it's sometimes, either from your own investigation and researcher from a profound, personal experience. You moved to that knowing stage. And once you reach that, that can be very, a positive force in your life. You can live your physical life more fully. If you believe that we're more than a physical bodies and we're not extinguished when, when death comes So you did
Will: find. This forever family foundation, that really is goal of the foundation is to educate the public about the evidence that's out there. That we're more than our physical body. So I guess I've got to ask, what kind of evidence have you found? How did you go from hope
Bob Ginsberg: to knowing? Well, the first thing the way I [00:07:00] started and the way I think a lot of people started.
And what for life after death to be possible, you have to believe or come to know that our mind, when I say mind, I think you could say consciousness, or you could say soul, if you prefer, but our mind connect independently of the physical brain. That's how things might telepathy take place, where remote viewing and things of that sort uh, psychokinesis, you know, distant healing where, you know, our our minds.
Confined to wear skulls that can go beyond the body. And that's how things like telepathy and ESP work. So there's a tremendous amount of evidence. On that, I mean, Dean Reagan's research is really compelling and a lot of scientists that show that. ESP is real. When you go beyond that, that sets the stage for believing to going further.
And we talk about near death experiences and deathbed visions and the life experiences, you know, reincarnation of medium ship after death [00:08:00] communications. And what I found was, and I, and I dive deep into all of these things. You know, despite, I mean, I can count, I could count there. Most of the arguments that skeptics will, will, will give, and it's easy, I guess, to dismiss any one discipline of research as being coincidence, the product of a dying mind and so forth.
But when you step back and you examine all of the evidence collectively, I think. Survival of consciousnesses. The only thing that, that makes sense, you know, so I, you know, I became a believer based upon the evidence, not based upon, you know, faith or hope,
Karen: what part of the evidence or what has been most compelling to.
Well, anything that kind of pushed you over the edge.
Bob Ginsberg: I was really interested in near death experiences because to me, you have somebody that meets every single definition of death. You know, they have no brainwaves, they have no respiration, they have no heartbeat. They have no reflexes. Medical science says [00:09:00] that they're dead.
due to our increased resuscitative techniques, we bring back a lot of people from, from that. And what did they describe? Well, they described many, many things, but certain things are common to most often reported. But the thing that struck me is that they all report clear and.
Thinking. So, you know, if you, if your brain is not working or dying or, you know, how do you say that it's hallucinatory? Cause the hallucination, like people that are oxygen deprived it's anything but queer and elusive thinking, you know, they have a proxy of their. There it's fragmented. They in and out, you know, the thrashing about here, they describe clearer thinking that they ever had before they describe many of them being outside their body and being resuscitated.
And then being able to say everything, everything that went on in the operating room, you know, Colors people wearing the movement, the conversations that went on some people report seeing deceased, loved ones. They did it, they described this other dimension that they go to. And there's [00:10:00] a host of things.
Most importantly, when they come back, their lives are changed because. They find it very difficult to get re assimilated into the physical world after what they've experienced. But that was the first thing that struck me. I mean, there have been people that have been blind from birth, you know, sightless, they've never seen anything and yet they have a near death experience and then they come back and they, they talk about the colors and, and, and everything that, that they saw our, which turns out to be true.
So I think. It's good evidence that certainly that our, our mind is not the same as a physical brain in that our minds can continue without the brain working. So that was very compelling to me. You talked about meeting. Which we've been kind of tied to the hip with,
Will: and we'll get into that in a second, because that is the second part of this interview that fascinates me completely.
But before we head there, Karen, I think you had
Bob Ginsberg: a
Karen: question. No, I was just going to say it makes perfect sense. And it's something you never think about. You never think about that. The FA the fact [00:11:00] that your brain is dying too, and it's not getting the oxygen and everything that it needs. So how could you have these clear visions?
Of course. Yeah. But then you
Will: proof, there you go. You see, you see all these documentaries and you and your wife in the foundation were a part of one surviving death. Netflix, which was an incredible documentary, everyone talks about that. The shared experiences when they come back and as you see the light and you see the tunnel and the end of the tunnel, there's a light.
And in the inside the light, you have your relatives, your loved ones. Are there waiting for you to, to transition you, but something happens and someone says, no, no, it's not your time, your time. So then you go back into your body and sometimes you see your body, you rise above all those things where you hear about all that stuff.
And you do hear the counter-argument that the chemicals are firing in your brain, as you're dying, you alluded to it earlier is just that, that explains the visions that you're getting right before you pass. and I do understand the, taking the, the bulk of all the evidence together to make the argument for the, proof of the afterlife.
But, [00:12:00] there hasn't been, at least that I'm aware of definitive. This is absolutely. Proof that the consciousness survives?
Bob Ginsberg: Yeah. And I don't think they will be certainly not in my lifetime, but it reaches a point of. You know what happens in the legal system? You know, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, you know, and I think we've reached a point where we've, we can show proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but absolute proof.
We're not going to know until we die, you know, the bottom line, no one
Karen: ever reports like the slurring or things slowing down, which they would, you would think they would report that to if the brain's dying and, but see to me since no one's talking about that stuff. Proof that they are seeing their actual
Bob Ginsberg: families.
I mean, the argument with near death experience as well, you know, they never were really dead, you know, but you know, th th there They're they're unconscious. They're lots of times, you know, their eyes are covered, their ears are plugged. You know, they have no brainwaves [00:13:00] to let them make an argument that, that, that, that they're still around and observing, you know, it's just not feasible.
I mean, there's one famous account of, of a person that had a very serious operation where they drained all the blood from her body. And she. Came back and she said that if you go up to the I forget the floor, but the seventh floor of the hospital on the east wing on a ledge, outside a window, you'll see two sneakers that she saw from her vantage point.
And she described the color of the sneakers and how they were positioned. And like the, you know, she told that to when there's an, a nurse was like, ah, what the hell is. Uh, You know, I'll go up, you know, like an idiot and she figured, and she went up there and the, exactly the way she described it, the sneakers on the wedge.
So yeah, you can make the argument that somehow she was in a helicopter before, when she went up on the roof and she saw that, but it just, you know, at some point you're gonna say, okay, that's, that's like beyond reasonable right
Will: now. You're looking for reasons not to believe more than the other way. Yeah.
your wife, Fran sadly. [00:14:00] Passed away probably about a year and a half or so ago.
Bob Ginsberg: So how
Will: I'm sure that must give you quite a lot of comfort, knowing what you know now that your belief in the afterlife, it I'm sure it has helped with that, but has her passing influenced you even further in any way?
Bob Ginsberg: Yeah. I mean, you know, despite what you know and despite, the experiences that you've had, I mean, we're human and then, you know, and then sadness and loss and sadness and loss. And I think the advantage that I might have over some other people was that You know, in a really dark place, I'm able to reflect back on everything that I know.
And I've learned to kind of dig myself out, whereas somebody that didn't believe in life after death might not be able to do that. And I think that's the advantage of. Well, like for all our members and all the people that we touch and is that it just gives them a tool to [00:15:00] help. So somebody says we're going to cure grief, you know, run the other way.
I mean, that that's, but and you know, we hold these, we hold these grief retreats, and we're, you know, we're expanding the number that we do. We have in various parts of the country. Right now we're in California and Florida and Connecticut we call them grief transformation retreats, but I'm very careful at the beginning and the opening remarks to say, this is not a magic pill.
You're not going to walk out of there. And grief is going to go away like a virus, but as I said A lot of them find it. Isn't very transforming either through the information that they learn or possibly through a very evidential mediumship reading. cause we do have certified mediums at these retreats, so it's just, I think it's a.
It's an effective tool, perhaps even more effective than traditional therapy or medication, you know, in the treatment.
Will: And I think there could be an argument made about the fact that grief is a necessary component to honing who we are. I know I've grown the [00:16:00] most in my life based on sense of loss, whether it's loss of self or loss of loved ones or loss of opportunities.
it's allowed me to really. Look deeper into myself and grow from the experience. So I think it would be a devastating thing if we didn't have that with,
Bob Ginsberg: I think you're right. And very often grief or trauma is a as a catalyst for exploration, exploration for answers. Yep.
Will: Absolutely. So,
Bob Ginsberg: sorry, go ahead, Kara,
Karen: have you had any your answers with France since she's passed, like with throughout mediums
Bob Ginsberg: and it's interesting because Fred,
Will: it sounds like Fran had.
Intuitive abilities because she dreamed that something was going to happen. Something catastrophic was going to happen that day. So the veil was thinner for her, from my, what I'm hearing. So I'm wondering, did that help in any way to maintain a connection? That's an interesting question here.
Bob Ginsberg: it's a, it's a question that I get asked a lot, you know, because people think, well, you must be getting like a ton of communications and a ton of what I will say. I'm [00:17:00] going to, haven't gotten a tremendous number of after death communications, as I'll tell you a couple of things that have happened, but.
I know a friend, we knew each other very well, and she knows that I'm probably much like you will. I question everything and she is figuring out, cause it can't be easy, you know, a full-proof method of contacting me that I couldn't possibly question when it comes, it's going to be good. But you know, I mean, are you familiar with electronic voice for funnels?
We are, I am. All right. So, you know, certain people when spirit the theory is that they're able to imprint their voice or a voice onto recording devices in the back in the day. These were the reel to reel tape recorders, and now everybody uses their cell phone, you know, to, to record any digital device.
So, we have a friend she happens to be a certified medium with our foundation. Name is Janet Mayer and Janet Not connected to her work. She likes to experiment with EVP and she was very friendly with Fran and [00:18:00] she said, is it okay with you? I'd like to. Set up a series of seven questions and I'll change them every week.
And once a week, I'll ask Fran and spirit these questions and let's see what happens. And then she would send me the audio files after they do it. So at 1.1 of the questions the friend was, what is the name of the organization that you started? And you hear a faintly, but clearly. Forever family foundation.
Wow. Really? Are you
Will: sure? Are you sure they couldn't have been free of roof for river?
Bob Ginsberg: That's another discussion. Cause I'm happy with that. So when I used to get all these MVPs, what I used to do is take it into a group and I would play it for 10 people. And if one person. He hears it nine don't.
I don't think that's very evidential if I play it. And, and nine out of 10 or 10 people hear the same thing. It's hard to make the argument that our minds were just forming sense out of nonsense. You know, so I'm here, you know, I was satisfied that it was uh, you know, what they call a class a example because it was clear.
[00:19:00] last year, this time she asked the question, do you have a message for Bob? And it happened to be my birthday that day. And. Happy birthday, you know, so I hear these tapes, so I need to hear these well, get them together. And you know what, when I am home collection of these that we've collected over the years of direct things.
So, you know, in my mind, and probably for somebody like you, is that. It's very compelling because it's not coming from a third party. I mean, we have tangible evidence that we can listen to with our physical sense of hearing. So these things are very compelling. If you can eliminate the possibility that fraud was involved and the medium was somehow, or the person collecting it was imprinting it.
But you know, in this case, I know the party involved in, you know, that's really not an issue. And I've heard so, so many. I don't want to give the impression that you just turn it on. It's always going to happen. Some people try it for a year or two and never get anything. And sometimes all, and some people are better than [00:20:00] others at getting it.
I mean, Janet. Gets it. And maybe because she's a medium, I don't know, but she seems to get it all the time. , I
Will: will say that hearing someone say to me, yes, I'm getting a message from beyond and the messages, this, and hearing it recorded on a device outside of someone else telling me does seem a lot more compelling.
I will also say I've never. And I have gone on investigations. I've been trying to get to your point. I've gone out and I've not never once have heard something said on a digital device, even I've been, we talked to psychic investigators and witches and all kinds of people who go to haunted places and do the recordings.
And they've actually. Uh, Released live videos of this machine. That's supposed to be shuffling through all the different radio frequencies, waiting for something, some sort of voice or some sort of message. And every once in a while you watch it and go, I just heard. I was like, I didn't even hear that.
Where'd you hear that? I need to have one tape. I didn't hear that. And I just heard a [00:21:00] car go by. Oh, I just heard Joe. You need to go home. Right. I've never
Karen: okay. But, but this is the kind of person will is. So today, now, today we were in what happened this morning, we're in the kitchen and you know, you get on your iPhone, you get little memory pictures.
This was five years ago, whatever. So this picture popped up of my daughter and we were on a trip to Roanoke. And
Will: we run up
Karen: and I had, we had bought this picture that we really liked and you know, it's hanging up on the wall in Roanoke. Yes. And it's an iconic Roanoke symbol, so we have it hanging up and I look at this picture, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is, you know, remember this trip to Roanoke.
And she's like, yeah. And right then the picture pops off. Nobody was by the wall. Nobody was by the picture, nothing.
Bob Ginsberg: Well, it depends on the circumstances. You'll appreciate. I don't know if you remember, but I gave Netflix a file Fran had filmed of the whites in our kitchen. I don't know if you recall that, but the circumstances were.[00:22:00]
You know, w we were talking about our deceased daughter, you know, we were out somewhere and then we came in the house and then we walked in the kitchen and then we would treat it to this light show. I mean, there are nine high hats in our kitchen and they were, it looked like the 4th of July, you know, and I had been living in the house or 10 or 15 years never had that.
And so. It lasted for about five minutes and then it stopped and then I walked away and in France had come back and then the show started again, the light show. So what y'all are for the pilot, the story that you'll appreciate it. At nine o'clock the next morning I had an electrician and the next morning, and I had him take out each one of the nine high hats, you know, to inspect them and he didn't find anything wrong.
So then I had him take off all the sweat, the control switches, and he never found anything wrong. And that doesn't happen, you know, in the 10 years after that. So to me, I will accept that. Cause first I ruled out the physical [00:23:00] explanations and circumstances. We were just talking about her. So I took that as a hello.
Will: In our house we have high hats and there's one. That does put flickers all the time. Right. I'm just assuming it's a faulty switch or there's something which it probably is. So I didn't really think anything of it. I I've heard, I R Y I've watched many documentaries about surviving death and that kind of stuff, and, and all these stories and nine times out of 10, I'm thinking.
Yeah, but that could be blah, blah, blah. But we never get the follow through the fact that you brought in an electrician in to find out that's pretty exciting. That's exactly what
Bob Ginsberg: the
Karen: flipping didn't start until we were talking about someone in our family that passed away and I said, well, tell them to stop.
And we'll says, Keith stop and the flickering. I understand we don't have self injecting picture nails will have self-injecting picture nails. And
Bob Ginsberg: here's the thing, you know, the w you know, w we know, we know that psychokinesis is real, right? So the mind has a power to affect matter. So [00:24:00] it doesn't because a psychokinesis happens.
It doesn't mean this has anything to do with life after death. You know, people can control things with their, with their minds, but when it's tied to. You know, some discarnate entity in some way, you know, then you start thinking in other terms, I think that the way things happen people on the other side, so to speak can, can arrange these synchronicities and these movement of objects and so forth.
It's still psychokinesis cause they still have a mind. They just don't have a body. Because the mind still continues. So, you know, it's the same thing. That's why mediumship is effectively mind to mind communication. Just one person doesn't have a body. So it's very, and it's very hard to differentiate for me, which is a problem.
When I, when I invest in. You know, evaluate mediums. Is this a piece of psychic information or is this tied to, you know, spirit? Well, that's really interesting because I've not
Will: ever heard it described like that where it's mind to mind communication [00:25:00] and it makes sense that you'd still have a mind that in our physical reality, we see our mind as being our brains.
That's our mind, but. I believe that there's evidence that has shown that there's so much more than that our consciousness does not necessarily live within our brains or within our bodies. They live somewhere else and we're just kind of projecting it. We're almost like, like an avatar, right? That we, we are avatars.
Earth and our consciousness actually lives somewhere else. Has all these talks about that. Don't know if I believe it, but that's what people are saying. Right, right. So then let's turn our attention since we were on the topic of mediums because you and your wife set up this certification program, which is.
Fascinating to me, because you actually put someone to the test to evaluate whether or not these folks are truly communicating with people or they're just making shit up,
Bob Ginsberg: right? Yep. Yeah. Well, that's, that's, that's pretty much it.
Karen: What do you [00:26:00] really mean? Well,
Bob Ginsberg: no, you're right. I mean, I do after visiting. A few scientists that study mediumship and university settings, I kind of pick their brains and I came up with my own way of evaluating mediums and it's very comprehensive. And you know, I wrote a book about that, you know, the medium explosion and the reason I wrote it is for that very reason, because I say in the book.
Which I stand by that 85 to 90% of all practicing mediums today cannot do what they claim. Wow. That's I'm not saying they're all fraudulent. Although a small percentage are, I'm saying that they have some intuitive, intuitive ability as do we all in varying degrees. But they have very little ability to communicate with the dead or no ability.
So, and yet when we're out there to charging, you know, there were no regulatory bodies when it comes to mediumship by tomorrow, or you can hang up, will the mediums sign tomorrow [00:27:00] and start charging people 500 hours. And it's already there.
You got the gear,
Will: but in researching is interesting that I found that. I thought that perhaps this is actually to your point, the people who are calling themselves mediums are maybe super, highly intuitive and are actually talking to other people's minds and getting information from someone else in an ESP type of way, versus speaking to
Bob Ginsberg: someone that's crossed over Zack.
But then you get to situations where the medium's giving you a rating and they tell you something which you. are not aware of, and you dismiss as, as being wrong. And then later you find out that it's true, but you never knew it. So it's hard to make the argument that the medium is reading your mind.
If you never knew this, you know anything about this statement to begin with? Also sometimes there are these. You know, drop in communicators, people that you're not expecting to hear from. And then you take down the notes and then you research it and you find out, you [00:28:00] know, that was real, but you never knew that they existed.
So, I mean, there's various ways, you know, to look at that. But yeah, I mean, to your point, if I'm the medium and I say. You know, we'll did you just paint your, your bedroom blue? I'm seeing a blue bedroom and let's say you just happened to paint your bedroom blue. That would be a fantastic piece of psychic information, but has absolutely nothing to do with life after death.
It just meant, you know, you're, as you said, you're picking up the information from, in a psychic mind to mind communication, but If I'm bringing you through your deceased dad and I give you seven pieces of specific evidence. And then I say to you, Hey, well that is telling me he likes that you just painted your bedroom blue.
Then I can accept that as a piece of mediumistic communication. Cause you've already presented the evidence. It's the same way. Some of these mediums today, you know, they believe that if they give you a message, Then their job is done, you know, and they make you feel, but you know, your mother loves you.
Well, of course your mother [00:29:00] was here, you know, in most cases, you know, you know, messages are great, but you can only accept them once the evidence is, is shown. So you are, you're convinced that. There's communication taking place, then a message can be accepted. Right? So,
Will: so these certification programs that you have, is it like multiple choice or is it an essay
Bob Ginsberg: or how does, how does it, many steps involved first, you know, we never solicit any mediums because that would diminish the integrity of the program.
If I, to call it entrapment, right.
We asked them a series of questions, looking for some red flags, if those are acceptable we will give them access to complete an application and it's not name and address and email. It's nine pages of shit.
Sometimes when they, when they um, see the application, I, if I, if. Access to 10 people to [00:30:00] complete the application. Maybe one does because when they see what's involved and it's not a matter of them sending us 200 bucks and giving them the stamp of approval, they run the other way. the application then comes back.
It gets reviewed by a committee. Then an interview is arranged like an hour long interview, which is very extensive. And if that is, if the, if the committee agrees that this is a candidate that should go forward, then we set up the evaluation and the evaluation that each medium has to do a series of five readings for five different sitters sitters being the people that are receiving the ratings.
And these sitters were all trained by me. And how to score information, you know, when we go over examples and I play the role of the medium and, and, and then after they get the hang of it, you know, we have a pool of trained sitters. So, it's, that's comprehensive scoring it's composite based upon five different ratings.
And as five days. Scoring methods within that. So it's really, [00:31:00] it's, it's not a scientific experiment, even though it is conducted on the controlled conditions, but we don't use blinded protocol and have scientific safeguards because that's not our purpose. Our purpose is to re replicate the situation of the medium sitting in front of the sitter.
Sure, sure. what I can tell you though, especially during the pandemic medium stop doing readings and face-to-face in the physical sense, you know, so what they do is everybody's using zoom that opens up the fraud possibility exponentially because we, we caught a medium once that was just like, were doing it now on the, on the left side of the medium screen, she had the persons.
zoom screen wish he had the person's first name and last name. And then the right side of the screen, she had the sitter's Facebook page open back. It's amazing. All the crap you could find on Facebook. Wow. Reading those back in the sitter is, wow, this is the greatest medium [00:32:00] that ever lived.
She knows totally fraudulent, you know, but this is something that people have to be aware of a hundred years ago when you were sitting in somebody's. This wasn't a possibility, but right now it is, you know, so you should always give a medium as little information as possible.
Karen: So I have two questions for you.
Well, now I have a lot, but two that are in my brain right now that I've got to get out before I forget them. So the first one is, can you give us some example of some red flags that you'd see right away and be like, Hmm.
Bob Ginsberg: Well, I mean, one of them is all I'll, I'll ask that question. what do you think is more important?
The evidence, so the messages, you know, and some of them will say, well, it's the messages of love that are, that are the most important. I don't like that answer, because the evidence has to proceed, the message Or I would say things like, what would you do in a, in a reading where you're not making a connection and no information comes through hoping that they would say, well, I would offer the refund, you know, the sitter's money and call it a day, you know?
But then they'll say things like, oh, that, that can't [00:33:00] happen. It's never happened. even the best mediums in the world. still have periods where they don't connect the thing. The mediums that we've certified over the years are more consistent. They rarely don't connect, you know, that that they rarely have a bad, you know, reading, so the, I mean, that, that's the difference, but th th there's certain things that we ask, I mean, I sometimes I'll w we'll check their website, you know, and they do.
Everything from pet sitting to uh, art workshops to like, I'll do like 5 million things. I'd rather see somebody be really good at something than do a crappy job with 25 different things. You know, it sounds
Will: like a story of my life.
Karen: This is a good thing to tell our listeners, you know, If you're going to get a reading, check her out, ask her the questions that these questions what's more important.
My second one before I forget. So what percentage of the people that go through the application actually received the certification? Good
Bob Ginsberg: question. since 2005. Between 10 and 15% of the mediums that went [00:34:00] through the certification gained certification, which means that 85 to 90% don't.
Wow. Which doesn't make me a very popular person.
Karen: That's a website. A very good go-to.
Will: Yeah, absolutely. So then if people really are looking for. Authentic medium. Do they look for the decal from the forever family foundation on the window? Or how, how do they get?
Bob Ginsberg: Yeah, I mean, we, you know, once they gain certification, we list them instantly, no money ever exchanges, they can't pay to participate.
They can't pay to be on a website. I mean, money's out of the equation. So we have on our website on for family foundation.org, we have a certified mediums page and all the mediums are listed. There's a, a scientific organization called the wind bridge Institute. They are, they're not certifying mediums anymore, but they did.
And they have an extensive wisdom of mediums. Other than that I'd be careful. Everybody seems to be certifying. You know, when we first started doing it, nobody was certifying meetings. Now, mediums are certifying other mediums, which, gets, [00:35:00] MSCI my radar. Then they're also taking classes and paying that medium for, the right training.
Will: They'll be certified by
Bob Ginsberg: the end of the class. Yeah. So, I mean, or if you, if you do one reading for the, for the owner of the person that's doing certification, that's not really a broad enough based to make a decision. So, yeah, I don't yeah, I'd be aware that there's not, you know, you can get a referral from somebody, but just because your friend had a great reading doesn't mean that you're going to make the connection, you know, Think about it, just three parties involved in a reading or at least three, this is the person in spirit.
There's the medium. And then there's you as the center. And there has to be a resonance among the three for it to happen. It's a miracle that had happens all together. And yet, you know, 10% of the mediums are extraordinary. I mean, they really can do this on a consistent basis with really obscure information, you know, General stuff.
And by the way, when we score things, [00:36:00] specific information is weighted more heavily than a general piece of information. So if. Karen, if you're giving me a reading and you look at me and you say, do you have a great-grandmother and spirit? I'll say bullshit. Yeah, she'd be 140, you know, my great grandmother was in spirits.
I'd have to mark that as a hit, but if you said you had made great grandmother, Rebecca here and. Great. Grandmother's name was Rebecca. Then I would score that more heavily than the general piece. Cause I could give you a reading right now and get almost a hundred percent accuracy, but it's all going to be general bullshit.
Will: Okay. your site is a fantastic resource for people who are really looking, they can go to your site and they can look at the directory of certified mediums. And those are the type of people that you can go. You can reach out to them and then get a reading. And get the, hopefully the comfort that you're looking for.
And we'll put a direct link to your site on our show notes. So you can just go to the skeptic mitigation.com and click the episode link. [00:37:00] And in there on the show notes, you'll, have the direct link so that it makes it easy for you to find.
Karen: And I would say this is especially a great resource for people who have recently lost someone because you are in that grief.
And unfortunately, there are people that would take advantage of that. So you don't want to spend all this money with just someone off the street that, feels like she knows the person that passed. Check out this website and these mediums, that's a great resource.
Bob Ginsberg: I would also say that, there's, there's a such a thing as a bibliotherapy.
I mean, you can find some comfort in reading, you know, about these things, you know, and we have recommended reading things and, you know, learn about all these things we're talking about and form your own opinion, just absorb it and see what you, what you make sense out of it.
Will: Truly a fantastic resource in Bob.
I couldn't talk to you all night because I know that I had a list of questions that I think we only got through two or three. I think I still
Bob Ginsberg: have another 40 or 50. Sorry. I didn't shut up.
Will: No, not at all. I'm so glad you brought a lot of information, you know, when you have some, sometimes you have these conversations that you look at the clock and you go, how the hell has it been?
40 minutes. That's [00:38:00] how this has been for me. I really, really appreciate you coming on the show. If someone wanted to reach out to you. Obviously we'll put the link to your website out there. is that the best way for
Bob Ginsberg: someone to reach out to you? Yeah. At forever family foundation.org. If somebody wants to email me, they can email me directly at Robert at forever family foundation dot.
Will: we'll add that link directly to the show as well. Bob again, thank you so so much. This has been fascinating and thank you for what you do, because it's a service that we all desperately need. And thank you for bringing your your script. Convictions along with, with you. I really appreciate
Bob Ginsberg: Yeah,
Will: So again, thank you so much for coming. Really.
Bob Ginsberg: Thank you. And it was my pleasure. Thank you.
Will: And uh, before we go, I wanted to share a brand new review that came on our podcast. It's from. The name of the person is Raz R I a Z for one 12.
They're in the United States and they rated us Karen five stars [00:39:00] and the subject line was my favorite podcast. So, you know, that's a great start. Absolutely. And they go on to say, I love listening to this podcast have been listening for months. They have interesting topics. Great work. We'll end.
Bob Ginsberg: Awesome.
Will: Yeah, that's awesome. That's one of our new favorite person right now, besides Bob. If you'd like to leave us a review or rate the show and we really, really would love it. If you did, you can do that directly on our website, skeptic, metaphysician.com or on any of the podcasting platforms like apple podcasts and Spotify.
And as you can see, it doesn't need to be a long rambling dissertation. Just a couple of words. We'll do just. And we do appreciate every single one of our reviews and are always looking for ways to improve the show. Reviews and ratings are only one way that we can evolve and grow by learning what you like and what you don't.
So please take a minute and review the show if you'd be so kind. And I want to thank you for coming along on our journey of discovery with us. Again, we'd love to continue our conversation with you on Facebook and [00:40:00] Instagram. So please find this there under, at skeptic metaphysician. At skeptic metaphysician.com, where you can find direct links, not only to our social media platforms and those of our guests, but where you can also subscribe to the show or leave us a review or voicemail directly on the site this week.
We'd love to know what you liked the most about the podcast. So drop us a note. You might just hear your email or your voice right here on. And as always, if you know someone that would benefit from hearing the messages that we shared on this show or any of our others, I hope you'll consider sharing us with that person.
It'll help grow the show on me. Just help someone else come to terms with the fact that we're so much more than just this three-dimensional body that we have. If you're listening to this episode on the radio and missed it, not to worry all of our shows, including this one can be found on our site, skeptic, metaphysician.com.
. I hope Karen, that you've enjoyed this episode as much as I have, this has just been wonderful.
It really has an audience member. I hope that you have enjoyed it as well. Sadly, that's all we have for [00:41:00] now. And I do have to say sadly, because I'm lamenting the fact that the interview is over Bob. I really loved our conversation, but Hey, we'll be back again next week with another super interesting guest.
We'll see you on the next episode of the skeptic metaphysicians until then
Bob Ginsberg: take care.
Author/Founder of Forever Family Foundation
Bob Ginsberg started researching the evidence for survival of consciousness soon after his daughter died in 2002. Devastated by the loss, he needed science to tell him if she still existed in some form. In 2004 Bob and his wife Phran founded Forever Family Foundation (foreverfamilyfoundation.org), a global not for profit that educates the public about evidence that we are more than our physical bodies. Bob hosts the Signs of Life radio show, is past editor of Signs of Life Magazine, heads the foundation’s Medium Evaluation Certification Program, writes a blog at beyondthefivesenses.com., and is the author of The Medium Explosion. Bob, Phran and the foundation are currently featured in the Netflix Docuseries Surviving Death. Sadly, Phran passed to the Spirit Realm September 22, 2020.