Why Your Spiritual Awakening Feels Stuck (and How to Move Through It)

0:00 Hmmm, Karen, Yes, do you think right often? Oh? Ah, gotta let me finish sometimes pause. You don't like pause? I know I don't, but still you got to just let me finish. But Karen, yes, do you think world peace is something we can just manifest? Oh? God, I wish it was. I so wish it was. I'm talking like, if we all just collectively visualize holding hands across the globe while burning sage and chanting ome will fix politics, climate change and even Twitter. Right, Well, you're saying if we all so, if everyone was doing that, then yeah, there would just be no violence. Everybody holding hands, everybody. I guess that's a I guess that's a good point.

0:42 If we're all holding hands, we can't actually fight, right exactly. Well, today's guest he's got a radically different take, and it might just be what we've all been waiting for. Oh see, he says that unity isn't about everyone agreeing, it's about something deeper. Oh seriously, just you thought you'd finally arrived on your spiritual path, Boom, this guy shows up and whispers, Yeah, but what if that's just your ego and a new pair of yoga pants. Damn it? He's an IVY League trained lawyer turned intuitive guide, a literary scholar with a PhD who channels divine insight, and he's got the receipts to prove it, awards, books, even a Kundalini awakening that probably short circuited half the Eastern seaboard. Today, we're digging into how season seekers get stuck into awakened identity, why fighting for peace might be the biggest contradiction of them all, why traditional activism sometimes works against spiritual wisdom, and how your inner transformation might just be the missing piece and the global unity puzzle.

1:44 You realize this is only like a forty five minute show like three weeks. Well, spoiler alert, he's not here to just talk. He's actually launching something powerful, and he's announcing it on the show here with Us today, and he's even offering a live reading for us on the air. That's exciting or scary. So yeah, if I start crying, don't judge me. Unless it's like that beautiful cry, then record it in slow motion. I've seen you cry, true, It's it's never beautiful. This is definitely one of those you're not crazy, You're evolving kind of episodes. To stay tuned because the skeptic metusician starts. Now. My name is Will, and I'm garious, and unlike moulderin Scully. Both want to believe. So we've embarked in a journey of discovery.

2:25 We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined a coven of. Witches and wait, you joined a coven? Yep, all the interests of finding something, anything that will prove that there's something beyond this physical. Three dimensional world we all live in. This is the skeptic metaphysicians. Hey there, I'm Will and I'm caring. Welcome back to the skeptic metasicians, where we don't just talk the talk and we walk the walk, but. We're really we kind of just talk and day walk. I know. Well. Anyway, our guest today's now your average spiritual teacher. He's a former professor and attorney whose journey from courtroom logic to cosmic wisdom is anything but predictable. With multiple award winning books, channel transmissions, and a gift for guiding others through the fog of awakening, He's become a trusted voice for those navigating the messy space between identity and soul.

3:22 He challenges a spiritual status quo with bold insights on paradox ego traps and how seekers unknowingly stay stuck, all while offering a deeply grounded path to enter peace and collective healing. He's here to help us untangle awakening from performance and maybe even show us a way to heal the world from the insight out. Oh so, please welcome Patrick Paul Carlinger to the show. Patrick, nice to see you. Nice to see you. Thank you. I'm frankly now very intimidated by the lead, and I don't know if I'm having lost with this. Those are some amazing words. Thank you. Well, you know, we expect a lot from our guests, and this is no different Patrick. You don't have just anybody on the sholf.

4:04 All right, Well, Like like we always do, we just want to dive right into the topic. And what really caught my attention in all of this introduction and all the research I did from you on you is that you say that being stuck is often misdiagnosed as a plateau when it actually could be a form of spiritual bypassing what what like? What? Well your best questions? That was a great question. Okay, what do you mean by that? Patrick? I mean I like you, You've got this better than I do. I want I want you to answer the question. Well, I think you've got more better answers than I've got. That was so well put.

4:46 Should we just replayed the intro exactly? So? Getting stuck? You know, people come to me all the time they're like, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck. And most of the time, you know, what they're stuck with is some sense that what they're what they're what they're going through, is like they shouldn't be going through this, like they should be beyond this already. Yes here, that's right, still doing this. Yeah, yeah, welcome to the human condition. We're all yeah, but all stuck. But sometimes, but there's sometimes where you feel a lot more connected than others. Right, There's there's and and and a lot of times when you feel like you Okay, I'm gonna just speak from my own personal experience. I've been doing the show for a long time now, and I feel like I should at least have my toe stuck out of my body, but nothing nothing?

5:45 So what is it? Why is it that my phone is ringing when it should be on mute? Sorry about that? How is it that that no matter how much work we do, it's still it still doesn't get us to where we need to be? Mm right, well there's the first part, right. The first problem is you know where we need to be? Like where you need to be is are already? Like right away? The question that's like in the way of like where do you need to be? You've got some desire, you want to be somewhere, you want to be somewhere else where you are? Which did I mention I'm having a day? Yeah, I'm going to drop an edit point here.

6:25 That's good, okay, sorry, So yeah, no, And most of the time, you know, when when I work with people and they come to me around being stuck whatever they're claiming to be stuck in, right, Like, so sometimes instead of what you said, I want to desire, I want to be somewhere, I want to be experiencing bliss all the time? Yes I do. Oh yeah, well yeah, you and me both. I mean, you know, for all the Kundalini awakenings, and you know, moments that I go into somebody and my chakras are lit up. You know, I've got a thousand other experiences. Is a you know, my emotions are here and there, and yes, I'm fully aware of what's going on, and yet I'm also really human, and so when things get stuck, when things really like sort of hold on, it's what it's just that's what needs to be given attention to. And what I find this goes back to your bypassingly, is we So many people are like they want to move through it fast. They're like, this shows up. Wait, I've got tools, I'm gonna heal it, I'm gonna rake it.

7:28 I'm calling in this say you know, archangel, I'm doing that. Like, let's move it along. And sometimes what you really have to do is just feel again and again and again. And sometimes that sucks to be blonde. It just sucks to be human. Right right, So I hear what you're saying. But so often we're told if you if you think that, if you feel that, you know, if you let that fear or whatever into your brain, you're going to manifest that, and that's what's going to happen. Oh I love, that's scary. Yeah, Well, you know I I love to throw that one right into the dustbin of well, thank you, because like that whole magnetic model, I'm just like everything you feel. Yeah, if you went around believing it, nurturing it, holding on to it. Oh where you know, whatever it is that you're feeling, Oh yeah, you probably will manifest it. You're putting out a lot of energy. If you're just feeling it in your body, it's not going to happen. That is one thing that happened. I'm glad you raised that, Kara, because that's something that people do all the time. Manye they feel it. Oh no, I'm gonna if I feel a lot of anger, I'm going to like manifest something I feel fear, I'm gonna manifest it. You know. Most of the time, it's just there's something in us that really wants to be felt, and so many spiritual people get really caught up in lots of really fancy techniques, want to move energy and do things like that and get rid of it. You know, at one point in the pandemic, I was super depressed weeks and weeks and weeks. Now, of course it's a pandemic. You know, there's a lot

8:58 going on, but Basically I could not budge this. Nothing would move, you know, all the techniques and prayer, et cetera. And I finally just was like, oh yeah, I just need to feel it. And I sat and I sat and I sat, and finally I broke into like absolute sobbing tears as this piece of me came up. It was a ten year old self. Wow. Well, when my parents got divorced, who said who is going to take care of me? Because it was like in the pandemic, everything's fallen apart, like you know, you wonder And I was like, oh my god, there's this little piece of me when my parents got divorced that just needed to be hurt. And I wasn't gonna like you know, archangel, Reiki, Matt, you know, that didn't need to It didn't need to be moved, It needed to be felt. So this is what I come to again and again, is a lot of people back to your point, will they bypassed it because we just don't want to feel it, because we want to get back to feeling blissed.

10:00 Right, right, that's a perfect explanation of spiritual bypassing. Right. It's not feeling into the shadows, it's just everything can be fine, love and light, nothing's wrong, It's all good. Right. Sometimes you have to go through the shadow to get the other side. But what if you get stuck in that feeling? You know? Or are you stuck? I supposed to just be in there for a certain apparent time I need to help. That's a great question, because the skill is learning how to sort of touch it for a while and really touch it, and then knowing when you are getting submerged and you need to step back and you need to sort of put it down for a little bit and come back. And that's a skill that you know in Buddhism and mindfulness, particularly around sort of touching this sort of stuff gently and not getting subsumed by it. That takes some That takes some skill as well.

10:48 So is there such a thing as too much inner work? Like when does he only become hiding? Ah beautifully put? Yeah, I mean I think that if you are withdrawing from the world, not interacting with people. And I know people like this won't name names, but I know people in the world who are you know, teachers, publisheds et cetera, who are just like, yeah, I can't I don't want to deal with people. I just want to do my inner work. And I was like, well, you are the world. That doesn't mean you have to interact with everyone, But you basically said, I'm going to withdraw from the parts of me that are triggering me, because that's what we do when we withdraw. So if we're describing inner work as sitting in meditation, not interacting with people, not engaging with things that trigger us, then we're not We are really hiding, and we're actually hiding from the parts of us that get triggered, which is what we actually should be working on.

11:47 Wow. All right, well I got a little work to do. I mean I kind of both do. So, I mean, would you recommend to someone, So, say, someone is kind of in the situation where they're trying to work on something and they're really feeling like they're getting stuck in that emotional pit. I mean, should at that point, should they reach out to someone like you to help, or a therapist or their friends or just kind of write it out. Yeah. Yeah. When I read people who've come to me with stuck issue, it's usually that they can't quite see it, and that's where you do benefit. You do need somebody who can eliminate that perspective. And sometimes that can be a therapist. People come to me and all the time and then I'm like, oh, this, what's going on with you is from this age or this say or this thing.

12:31 And sometimes it's it's a deep level trauma, you know, it's like physical abuse, sexual abuse, something like that. That's like I'll send somebody to a trauma dealer process. I never thought about that. That's a perfect like complimentary, like you know, Eastern Western medicine sort of thing, and I can find what's going on and then you can. Take care of It's cool. I never thought of that symbiotic relationship. Yeah, I mean some people like they don't realize that they need to go to a therapist and or you know, more often than not, what I find is that people are like, well but I've I've healed that, and I'm like, okay, you have free will and you have power, you have sovereignty, But it doesn't read that way to me or.

13:16 Anyone else around you actually, right, I know people like that. Yeah, not to name any names either, right exactly do you mean to look at you? Sorry here, But sometimes it just takes a shift in perspective to be like, oh, well, this piece that's going on or this is just coming up, you know, and again not to I'm incredibly careful about confidentiality, but just to share to give a point. You know, I read somebody and this this memory kept coming up, and it just was sort of this image. It was just it kept resurfacing as I'm like tuning in atos a person. I'm just keept getting this image of you and this animal. And the person was like, oh yeah, that was the one source of love when I was a child, and then went on to describe the family and the family life. Was like, whoa, that wasn't even what was coming through. What was coming through was this one memory. And then this client said, you know, I often find this, these memories keep coming back, but I just, you know, I'm not sure I'm really ready to like that's what's happened. Like literally, these memories are pulling in to say look at me. And so when that person was stuck, is that the mind and the body were telling them this is where we want to go.

14:40 Go back to the bypassing question, and I just had to be blunts, like you got to do this work. This is the stuff, like you know, whether it's with a therapist or you just being honest, like, Okay, I got to grapple with what mom and dad did to. Me, right, And it comes down to the fact that we've talked so many times about you can't just the switch and become awakened. You have to do the work. And so often do I go out there in the world and feel i do a podcast about spiritual awakenings, I'm very awakened, and only to realize I haven't done Jack squat when it comes to all these interviews, and so no wonder I'm stuck in the same damn place I was when it first started. Right, I actually have to put the work into it.

15:21 I totally get it. You've done some work I have. You've done some work I have. You're dying You've done some. Work I have, I have, I have, But I have a long way to go, a lot more work to go. We all have. I've done so much work. And then there are times I'm like, wait, this thing, it's still there, and then we kind of go, yeah, it's still there. Okay, another little layer, another little layerly hardwired, and you do not have accept that part of yourself which is like, okay, this is who I am. This is you know, and not in a sort of like I'm fatalistic, like I'm stuck, this is forever, right, But yeah, you know it's I wish I wish more people could just be really honest, especially people who people like me who put out books and appear as guests on podcasts.

16:15 We got our stuff, right, Yeah, I mean the epitome of the cliche, right, is it the therapist that needs therapy. Yeah. They say that a lot of therapists get into therapy, into the therapy business because of their need for therapy, and they get it for free. So maybe that, oh, I just a new career path three you. But you know, we've interviewed hundreds of people, and we do from time to time come across someone who said, well, you know, it was I don't know, on a mountain bike and had an accident or I was in a car accident and then you know, all of a sudden, I started hearing voices and I had this awakening experience. And I mean, I'm jealous, except for the accident part.

16:56 You know, I don't want that. But but what's your take on that? If they're not necessarily doing work all of a sudden, you have an awakening. Yeah, you know, because that's not my experience. I mean, I did have my own kind of like my life fell apart. Who the lead me awakening is little Well, that basically came later, and that was definitely a period a moment of grace. But you know, I went through you know, basically it's just like a mental breakdown and was like what am I doing with my life? And then all of a sudden, the universe started sending me. You know, a friend of mine was like, oh, you should go see this friend of mine who's a psychic. And I was like, oh yeah, And then all of a sudden, all these Indian divine mother figures started showing up and they're like you should go see this, and all of a sudden, you know, just the world open up.

17:44 But you know, it took me being basically beaten down by life to the point where I was like what is wrong with me? But I didn't have you know, the near death experience, the accidents or whatnot, So I can't speak to that other than the experience that I've had, like the Kundalini awakening, which did come after a lot of work, but completely unexpected unplaned for no desire attached to It just happens. So I can't judge them for their experience. But if it happens, it happens. But it's interesting what you just said, but both of you, because you said some people will get into accidents or having your death experience or something like that. Other people have to hit rock bottom before these starts things start moving.

18:31 Beaten down by life, beaten down by a tree. You just got to get beaten down with sort of beat down that gonna happen. So and we've also talked on the show about the fact that the universe starts with a whisper and ends up with a two by four to the head. So I'm assuming that what you're saying, what we're saying here is get down and do the work before you get hit by a two by four. Oh true, although or by Ahmet, I did start with the whisper though I started. You know, I was a gym bunny in Atlanta, Georgia going to a gym where all of a sudden, at my gym there was a power yoga class and I was like, oh, I could do that, because of course I'm a gym but I was like, I can do that. So I went to power yoga in terms that it was a serious ashtanga class top by somebody who had trained in my sore and was like giving me Sanskrit and I was sweating.

19:24 I didn't know what was gone, but I loved it. So I discovered all that, and that still didn't prevent the two by four because I wasn't really really really listening. You know, at the end of the day, you're going to have the awakening that you need. I mean, I have looked back at that experience right and said, why could I not have a Why couldn't I have avoided Why didn't I get to wake up earlier? Ten years earlier? Where would I be now? Yeah, didn't happen. That's part of accepting. This goes back to one of your original your first question will about spiritual speakers being stuck. One of the ways that people get thought is they have a sort of sense of like, this is the way it should have been, this is how it was supposed to go. Oh, and then I've had my awakening and now I'm supposed to get to bliss. It's supposed to, supposed to supposed to as opposed to as opposed to life taking you where you actually need to go, right, surrender.

20:23 I was gonna say it is about surrender. We're so taught in this culture specifically you got to make the plans, You got to make the appointments and the dates and the calendars and the whatever. So you control everything, and so you know how you want things to be. So I guess it makes sense you would think you know how your awakening is going to happen because you're just kind of used to kind of thinking a couple steps ahead of game. So you have to let go of any thought of knowing that. That's yeah, well take it a step further. It is the physical being that has to control because we have to survive. Yeah, and then we are here to relinquish that physical in surrender into the spiritual. And we're having a difficult time making the transition to we're stuck into three D. So we need to actually, another way of saying, got to get to the five D.

21:07 Did I just say what you said? Dang it? I thought it was a different I thought it was going down further. I just like to think we think similar about this topic. Yeah, but no, I shouldn't be doing that anyway, I'm going to get better. I'm gonna drop an edit point here, Yes i am, because that's terrible. All right, Well, you so generously offered to do a brief reading on us, and I do want to get to that at some point very soon before we forget, because that is really the most important thing after all. But not I'm just thing. But I do want to talk about peace, yes, yeah, peace. Yes, first, let's maybe define it a little bit when it comes to us, Like what does peace feel like in your body? Right?

22:01 Well, it's a great question because so many times when we talk about peace, we're really talking about like the absence of conflict or the cessation of conflict, like taking break from war or conflict, and like that's peace, and that's just the pause in war. That's not really peace at all. You know, it's so depressing, right, But peace is really the state of being. A feeling and believing that whatever is happening right now is okay, just as it is like whatever is happening in your life. We want to keep it really simple.

22:48 We don't have to get into like the whole world just yet. But like, now are you at peace? Like right in this moment, are you like, yeah, this is fun. Maybe not, But piece is really sort of that the external circumstances like have no bearing. I mean, piece isn't something that we create. Piece is something that we allow when we've stripped away all the conditioning and all the judgment. It's the natural state that we have. But that's true. How do you we create conflict? We do some conflict. Well, some people say that constantly comes from our pain body, right, So how does how does peace feel?

23:32 Like? How do you know that you have achieved peace? Because people walk around all the time saying, oh, yeah, I'm good, I'm good, But inside there's turmoil. There's all kinds of stuff stirring up in there. Right, kind of ties into our last conversation. So how can you tell when you have found inner piece? Mmm? I don't know. When I find it, I'll tell you darn it. We get experienced moments of piece. This is me being radically honest, because you know I I experienced moments of peace and then I got to get up and you know, oh, I got to make dinner and wait, it's something there, and I'm like a little annoyed. Am I out of peace? Yeah? I'm out of peace? If if I'm judging that there's I would without you know, I might say that there's something of a spectrum. But if your general relationship to your life, you know, I'm not talking this sort of the minor annoyance like you know, you run out of coffee.

24:30 You're like, oh, you know, something like that, though it can't be really that was a bad example, the whole example. Little stuff that might be you know, you're like annoyed for a second. Fine, But if your general overall feelings like these, my life is not under threat right now, that these circumstances are not ones that challenge my existence, then you have a you have achieved a a modicum of peace. I knew you can't say that word monicum.

25:13 I knew it. You knew it. You knew it. I did read in my mind. I did you know. It's interesting because, you know, so we work in TV and do a lot of podcasting and people will ask us to you know, critique their podcast or how can you know they make it better? And we talk about the audio a lot. And audio is one thing that if the audio is great, you won't notice, you'll listen to the podcast, you'll get the information. But if the audio sucks, you notice, And so now I'm thinking maybe that's kind of similar, like these moments of peace when you're in peace, maybe you're not noticing it, but you're getting annoyed that you see that the coffee is missing. I love them, or something like that. I love that. That's that's right. Maybe it's about me being more aware or appreciative.

25:55 Right, But then let's let's now go from inward peace to outward peace. The world is. A mess right now, at mess. And us as spiritual seekers, we try to be at peace. M hm. But some of the stuff some people out there listening or watching might feel like their life is in danger because of some of the things that are happening. Absolutely, so, how can you reflect peace into the world without or become a spiritual activist without becoming or falling into the US versus them trap? Yeah, it's truly like the hardest work, right, Like, let's just be honest, that is I think some of the hardest things. And we began with a coffee example, as trivial as that is, and then you know, you want to talk about the state of the nation, international conflict.

26:54 I mean, it's it's a natural transition I think I'm feeling very peaceful right better serenity over here. And really, the way I'd reframe it is peace is for me the state where you can be like, everything that is happening, no matter what it is, is in some way still operating for my highest good. Now, that means that peace can kind of almost coincide with or coexist with lots of other emotions, and we can be very kind of I want to say this, we can hold multiple positions at the same time and still in some level there can be a level peace. But we tend to lose it when we get into the world of let's say politics.

27:53 Now we start talking about like this group, they're the problem. And they are by the way, but anyway with that, and they are by the way, but go ahead, and they are they are right to. Wherever they are. They're the problem, never me, It's always them. There was a brilliant episode of Black Mirror if you've ever seen it, I love Black Mary. Black Mirror is genius. On the episode about the Other, it was just like the other is the problem. Like the whole episode, it was like who was the other? It doesn't matter, it's the other. That's exactly it at the same time. And now I'm maybe I'm going to fall into a contradiction and I want you to call me out on it. But there are positions, there are ways of being in the world that are more compassionate and more empathetic and more aligned with like you have a right to exist than other positions too. There are people that definitely hold positions like those people shouldn't exist, Those people shouldn't Yeah, there are and and I think that we can agree without following. Those positions definitely give rise to conflict, like you telling somebody you should not exist on this planet, yes, versus like, hey, I want to exist and you have a right to exist, and if you just stop worrying about my existence, we'd be fine because my existence is not really a threat to you. That is your that is your internal conflict, right, and that the person that generates conflict is like I'm not at peace because somehow

29:27 this is a threat to me the structure of consciousness, right, like the idea like we need to get rid of these people, these people who are different from me. And I know I'm being very generic here for me, I'm being a generic hear reason for your audience because I don't know who your audience. Yes, no, and we appreciate that because we don't either. Well, we think everybody, you know, no matter what side you're on, can benefit from these messages. If your view is like, actually, you're not a threat to me, right and the people that we think of as a threat to us. That goes back to the sort of inner work, because you haven't done the inner work.

30:08 Why does that quality, that difference in gender so much fear and anxiety in you about the state of the world. You know it, You know that is the biggest question. Why does it? Why does it? How do how is that so threatening to someone that they're being different makes them feel threatened? You go back to the ancient days, right that we're talking about the Salem witch trials and the Crusades, and it was it's always you are different than me, and so you shouldn't exist. So can you can you come to terms with why someone would feel it so threatened by the differences?

30:56 I mean, I find it perplexing as some who's like, what, you know, why is that difference threatening to you? Your existence is not really under threat just by the mere existence of this person. And very often these conflicts end up creating the conditions by which they sort of make them into threats, because some side takes action to eliminate the other, and the other one responds, and therefore there are actually threatening to know, there's existence at that point, right, right, And so we end up producing the very thing that we were worried about because we were scared. And some part of it's sort of a primal reptilian brain at work of like difference. I don't know, you know, I suppose, you know, going back is like, oh, there's the sabertooth tiger, you know, right, but we forget that, you know, people like there's a difference, and then there's the discourse around it and the beliefs around it and what those people do, and we would have to get really specific, I think around an example, to sort of unwine the beliefs that we start attaching. But then people develop biases and they develop prejudice, and they're like, this is the way these people are in kind of a sweeping way.

32:14 I have a theory. Yes, Now, a lot of this probably comes from the pain body, right, the need to create conflict in order to make themselves feel better. But I think a lot. Of that deep rooted dislike for someone just because they're different might come from a position of fear within themselves. I think somewhere inside they are afraid either maybe I'm like that, or you're going to do something to me that I am going to be threatened by. And so that fear, that hatred comes from inside and they externalize it and it doesn't really matter who as long as they have someone to point to.

33:02 Sometimes, right, I think it's about control, trying to control your environment. And if you go way back and you know, you have these two I don't know people, and one guy wants to control everything, and he's big and strong, and everyone's kind of doing what he's saying, and so the guy's like, oh, that's fine for you, but I don't necessarily accept that. Well, these people might start following that guy. So I got to get rid of that guy so that I can keep control of these people. No, this is a very different episode. Yeah, I feel like. We've got into this cultural anthropology, which I love because I have a degree in anthology. But is a skeptic anthropologists. The piece that I think for the podcast it's important because I hate to break it to you, I'm not going to solve the issue of world peace. Uh man, I know right, you know, I thought I had the book. I wrote a book. Well, I channeled the book. But the key piece is that people in the spiritual world, we love to think that piece is just like around the corner. It's just like going to show up, you know, It's like it's next year.

34:05 It's showing up newers. And when I ask people, it's like, Okay, we're all doing what karens is. We're all holding hands kumbayah. We have a moment of world peace. Okay, now we got to get back to our lives. We're all feeling really good about ourselves. Okay, who's running things? Where are we getting food? Who's doing this or that? Like all the things Like I ask myself all the time, what does a world look like where we all like regard each other with love and empathy and like divine beings.

34:46 It's like, okay, so what kind of laws do we have in place? When do we need laws? Who would enforce the laws? Do we need police officers? Like these are the questions, and people are like, ah, don't worry about it. The newors is coming, right. Do we have world leaders? Do we have one name. You know, like, this is stuff that I think about. Well, thankfully we don't have to worry about that much longer. We have our friend Ai to handle all that for us, right, careful. Edit point there. So let's talk about paradox because in your book Endless Awakening you write about paradox is a path. Right, what do you mean by that? Exactly?

35:29 Yeah? For me, and this goes back to kind of the way in which we get stuck and get bypassed and start bypassing, which is that you know, we mostly have. You know, we have an awakening experience, whether we're hit by two by four, a tree, whatever it is, you know, knocks us up. We wake up, We're like, oh my gosh, how amazing is this? Oh? Everything I thought about the world is different. Okay, where's enlightenment. I'm ready? Oh wait, I'm still stuck. And we kind of get a before and after before wakening, after wakening my identity, and then you know, sometimes people are on a like I'm on an ascension path, you know, I'm ascending, and it's like, okay, next level, next level? Wait, no, why am I not there yet? We get this set of linear time path and for me, it comes back to how the mind works.

36:23 It's just like that's not that's that that very construct of like this is what happened to you? Is like that story is itself a product of an old consciousness that I had it before awakening and after wakening, And there's a lot of judgment about who we were before and when we get into paradox, it's sort of like, can we hold multiple mutually exclusive positions together at the same time. Can we say that we're whole and still healing? Can we say that we're never and always in the present moment? And what does that mean? Can we say that I am mortal and immortal at the same time? Like when we kind of start to let our minds hold contradiction, then we're actually more at peace. The person that's like, I am always going to be non judgmental and then because that's a wonderful thing to be as a spiritual person. And then you get pissed off like though I'm a bad person as opposed to I am whole and still healing, like that I hold multitudes.

37:37 Well, all this talk of being stuck and finding a way to be at peace when everything is getting crazy, you've kind of danced around it. But the big thing there is how does someone who is very much living in three D going through their professional They're working in a job nine to five or whatever it is, and yet want they need they want to break out, they want to spiritually awaken. If only there was a program that could do something like that, that could help people do that. I believe that you're going to announce something on the show today, right. It's something that you might be like launching or something.

38:19 Imagine will I think I think you might be an intuitively, you know, I don't like to brag, but in fact I am, you know, working with people a lot over the years. People come to me for readings and I see them you know, here and there, and they come in and sometimes they want to do multiple readings. Sometimes I send them to a therapist. Sometimes I say okay, just go do this and work on you know. Then they circle back like six months later, and there's sort of not that AD made a lot of progress or they made some progress. And what I realized is that I really wanted to start working with people who were kind of in my shoes, which is that is, people who are professionals in some way, who are you know, going to a job. It doesn't have to be being a lawyer, you know, it can be anything. It was just like you've you've committed to a certain path in life, and then all of a sudden you realize there's really more to life than this. How do I make sense of this? And how do I go to my job?

39:18 How do I just how do I be a doctor or being corporate or be a teacher whatever it is that you're doing being a lawyer and still do this. You know, so many people hit that and they're like, oh, okay, this is meaningless or how do I find meaning and success in this and still feel like I'm honoring being a divine you know, a spiritual being. So yeah, I created a program. It's a one year community a membership program where we do a lot of deep work. It's because you know, it takes time to do this stuff, do the inner work, and we often need to do it in a relationship. And I find a lot of people come to me and they're like, yeah, I'm doing this on the DL right, Like you're not going into the firm, they're not going to their car, you're not listing it on LinkedIn or right right, you know, they're like, are there other lawyers? Are their doctors. I'm like, yeah, they come to see me. But it's all on the dal like you know, of course, which I get. You know I get, and so yeah, I'm I've launched a program so if people want to come to my website and get more info. Right, but it's a place where I am typically very like our conversation today, we weren't really getting into Kundalini and Chakras and all kashak records. Listen, I can talk that talk. I love that talk, but you know that's not what you need most of the time.

40:40 When you're like I'm at the office and I'm feeling stressed and like I'm working twelve hour days of work or whatever it is that you're dealing with, then you're sort of managing to use your language. You're managing life in three D material reality. We gotta we gotta work, we gotta pay bills. So then you can to help people's professional people to find that that tone tipping the balance, the bounce beam right, working on the balance beam, that the tight rope. That's what I was looking for. You're going to help people walk down tightrope that is so critical in this day and age because no one wants to be out in well, we've. Been talking about it a lot lately, that it is.

41:21 It's it's doctors and lawyers and computer people, everybody. Very mainstream type people are in this space now. So I always call it covert mainstream because they're like, you know, on the down low. But they're just like the regular people, right. Yeah, they're just regular people. They're like, where do I go? Yep, you know, but there's still that kind of stigma. So does it. And we're going to add a link to your website so people can reach out to your join that community and make it easy for them. But when they first reach out to you, do like you do a reading for them to kind of get them on the path first, or how does that work? So where if people want to urge in the program, like they can come talk to me about where they are, what they're doing. You know, I want to make sure this is going to be right for them, because some people like actually might benefit from working with somebody else.

42:07 And if they want to have a reading, then I will do a reading because some people know that usually in a course of a kind of you know, just a conversation, there'll be a little bit of a mini reading so they get a sense of kind of what it is, you know, say, yeah, so there will be some of that, and if somebody wants to like a full on reading, then yeah, we can schedule that separately. That's okay. Well, speaking of readings, yeah, you did mention before we started recording that you had gotten a lot, like pages upon pages of stuff on us. So I'm really curious there's books. You graciously agreed to do a mini reading on us.

42:49 And well, so the way I read just so that people know, because everybody ever, there's lots of readers out there and they do different things. And you know, I have like colleagues that I'm like, oh, if you want this, go to this reader. If you want this, go to that reader. So typically when I start reading somebody, and it was interesting because it was reading two of you and sort of who wanted to come in first. We're kind of like the same person though, so you know, we're kind of like the same person, So it doesn't you. Know, are you yes read? Yes, yes we are. I will reveal nothing impertinent, but often so when I read people, some people go they're like, I want to know what's happening in six months, what's happening. I'm like, I'm not that kind of reader. Like I read and I sort of get a snapshot of you and what's going on and the things that are coming through instead of where you're at with the idea of the evolution of your consciousness of who are you trying to you know, as you're on a growth path towards connecting with your soul and coming back into wholeness. Perfect. Yeah, and so interesting.

44:07 I'll be curious to see how you react to this. It's interesting because I've got my notes and I'm trying to I'm sort of trying to turn the dial because I'm used to reading people without having like chatted for you know, fifty five minutes about the thundery of pet I'm really up here now, But you know, we're going to go with it. We could have started with this is great. It's I'm just coming back to my notes. So when I first tune into somebody, usually get a sense of what they're like, kind of like personality wise, the energy they show up in the world. And so I'm just going to share with you what came through and then as I share and the dial sort of turns. This is the way it feels in my head, is like a dial turns, and I'm just sort of in another space. So if you start asking me about, you know, my books, I'm gonna be like, no, I don't know anything about that. So I want to talk about Will because Will came.

44:58 Through first as he is wanted to do. That's true, which has nothing to do with Eddie. Although everything about a reading, I say this to you, everything about a reading is part of the reading. Who comes like what shows up first in the order. But this is a mini reading, not a full honor. So what was interesting what came through first about you Will was I'm reading the word simple and that was not a mental, I want to be clear, a mental. There's no ton at the end of that. Okay, thanks for joining us. Patrick has been a pleasure to media about how you like to think keep things uncomplicated, Like there's just something about too much busyness of and it too messy. There was something about things being basic and essential for you that like, I don't know, it's like you were not fussy. You're not a fussy guy.

46:00 As what was coming through for me and I'm trying to get back to my nose. It wasn't aesthetic, like you're not a minimalist, like like you need everything to be like, you know, clean, with clean surfaces. It was like there's something about being very straightforward, like I keep saying, don't try to be too fussy, and so I don't know what that's like in terms of your actual personality. If you're just like I like things kind of basic. I like things kind of simple. I don't need things to be too fussy and too fancy. So I just want to connect there. What do you think? I don't know. I have to think about that. Yeah, yeah, what do you think?

46:42 I was just talking about how I want to simplify things. Maybe you're wanting to simplify things. Maybe that's what was coming through because you do have a kind of a lot going on. Yes, but well you may be busy, but are your style? Are you? You strike me like you're not a fussy Dresser's. You can be fussy about it, just it depends. He's a chameleon, my chameleion. So then what came through for you was a message about being an old or older soul.

47:22 First he called me a bad dresser. Now he's calling me old. I said that you were into what was essential, right, okay. And. What came through was interesting is your path And this does tie in with the simplicity is about the path requires no effort, none at all. And your path to being really like your path was to take as much effort out of your path. And what's amazing about that read is how it came through is take effort out of your path. Is requires effort and sort of to play with the contradiction because it's not about doing nothing, but the more that you can let go of effort.

48:25 Something about your path is about simplicity the basics. It's not about being busy, it's not about being fussy. It's just playing with that contradiction, taking effort out of like playing with that almost paradox, how do I effort my way out of effort? See I've gotten. That guidance before and it makes great sense because I'm the guy that really I teased it a little bit, but astral projection was the big thing for me, and I've tried for forty years to get out of my damn body.

49:09 Never has You need to get out of your way. You need to not get out of your You don't need to get out of your body. You don't need to get it. Yeah, you can need all the effort, all the trying. It's like when you really when you put your stuff down, all of it. This is when you put your stuff down, like literally, like I don't have to do anything with this. That's your path. It's like your path is like really simplified. At any time that you're like, oh, I need to like do X Y and Z, oh N, ABC and D, the answer is no, don't get there, put it down. Okay. It's so funny. It's such a funny path for you.

49:59 So we were having dinner with a friend a long time ago, and same thing. He channeled something from him and it was four of us sitting at a table and he just turned to me and he was talking directly to me and no one else about you're trying too hard. Yeah, just relax. Everything you need is inside you. Just relax and just let everything go and it will come to you. So you are reinforcing that message that I got and I get it, but I don't get it right because the effort that it takes to like go of effort is a lot of effort. Well, I think. Because so much of you you define yourself by your accomplishments, by your outside accomplishments. Yes, always have and people's approval of that. So for you to let that go is very difficult to do. So it's work for you to let that go. And it feels uncomfortable.

50:54 Yeah, so I'm feeling a littlettacked. Yeah, if like maybe seen. Is more like I'm sorry. Well, it's a wonderful buntry, the thing is. And it's it's interesting because it was also very you. You can get there in this lifetime. You can get to that space of like, oh me being will like requires no effort, and it's also is available to you if you stop. This is I'm literally reading my why do you stop trying so hard to get there? And there was this anxiety that I started to feel, will I get there? Will I get there?

51:35 Will I get there? And my heart was raised. Well, it's funny because the path that has called to me the most my entire life without really realizing, and I've not really done anything about it, has been Zen Buddhism, like Z that's always always called to me, and yet have never done anything about it. Oh my gosh, so what this is what I love? So I know you were like, so I know when my read feels like right, and you were like, I'm not simple, I'm you know what I love about Zen because then was my starting place. Then was my opening. I went to Zen and I was like, oh, this stuff and it was no deism whatsoever because I was so closed off. It's