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Hey there, it's Will.
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If you are jumping in here for the first time,
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I'm going to strongly encourage you to go back and
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start with part one first. This is the second part
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of a two-part interview. And the first part was so
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good that, trust me, you don't want to get into
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this one before listening to that one. And I know,
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I know, but trust me, our guest lays a foundation
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in that first episode that makes everything that you're about
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to hear land so much harder. There are nuggets in
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there that we are still thinking about ourselves. And I
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think you will too. But if you've already listened to
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part one, then you already know what kind of conversation
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this has been. So as a quick recap, Scott spent
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over a decade and a hundred thousand miles riding across
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America with his wife, Tony, asking one question. What is love?
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And the answer that they got back is not what
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anyone expected, especially and including them. See, apparently love isn't
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a feeling. It's not a chemical reaction, not even an
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evolutionary adaptation. It's the creative and purposeful aspect of universal
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consciousness itself. I know it's a lot to wrap your
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head around, but in a nutshell, basically, the brain does
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not produce consciousness. It receives it. And that idea right
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there is exactly what opens the door to where part
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two is headed. Because if consciousness is received rather than produced, well,
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it changes everything about a question that the entire world
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is actually wrestling with right now. I won't say more
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than that. I just want you to enjoy the episode.
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So without further ado, enjoy part two with Scott Burns.
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Let's go.
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My name is Will.
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And I'm Karen.
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And unlike Mulder and Scully, both want to believe. So
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we've embarked on a journey of discovery.
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We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and
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metaphysical world.
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We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even
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joined a coven of witches.
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And, wait, you joined a coven?
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Yep, all in the interest of finding something. Anything. That
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will prove that there's something beyond this.
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Physical, three-dimensional world we all live in.
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This is The Skeptic Metaphysicians. One thing that I stumbled
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on when I was doing some researching to you is
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the tide with artificial intelligence.
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Oh.
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And so, based on the entire conversation that we've been having,
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it just seems like love is a human state of being.
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Well, not just human.
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We were talking about dogs. A sentient, right?
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Okay.
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So, a sentient state of being, which then would beg
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the question, do trees feel love? Do ants feel love?
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If consciousness is everything.
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Now you're talking about feeling.
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And that's what he was saying earlier, is that's kind
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of how we describe it. So maybe ants and trees
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exist in love, but don't perceive it the.
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Way we do.
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I have to, because so much of what we do
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is story-based, and every time you say something, It's hard
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for me because everything you say brings up a story.
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Oh, please.
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We love stories. But you talk about trees. We actually
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asked that of an arborist in Montgomery, Alabama, and his
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name was Kirk the Tree Man. And his entire life is,
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you know, he's devoted to trees. And that's his love story.
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So we asked him that question because, you know, can
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trees feel love? And he said, I think the trees
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can experience love. I don't know whether they can express it. Oh.
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And so that may be one of the reasons why
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when we look at, I don't want to say lesser,
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but less complex living systems, why it's hard for us
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to interpret or imagine that love is a part of
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their existence. Because they don't express it. There's no marker
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for us to perceive or to pick up. So that's
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going to be an open-ended question. We don't know. But
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Kirk the Tree Man says, yeah, they can know it.
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I know where Karen's going next.
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You do know where I'm going next.
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I don't know if you saw, it was a while back,
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just all over social media, people talking to trees to
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try to get the tree to touch them. And so
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a woman was standing there and there's a branch, you know,
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maybe about a foot away from her. And she's like,
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you know, touch my face, please touch my face. And
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eventually the leaves ended up touching her face. So we're like, okay,
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we got to try this.
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So this is skeptic, right? He's saying, come on, someone's
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moving the branch.
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Yeah.
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We're not seeing the whole picture because it's just a little.
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Right.
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I'm super skeptical about this as we're going into it.
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So we went outside to somewhere where no one would
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see us because we felt weird.
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And then we could go first.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. And sure enough, you know, he's about six inches
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away from just a little kind of, you know, leafy
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twig or whatever hanging off a tree and started saying,
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you know, touch my face, please touch my face. And
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eventually it was on his face and he didn't move,
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which was incredible. So then I was like, well, I
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have to try it. But then I'm like, oh, what
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if it didn't touch my face? They can feel these things.
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Doesn't love you.
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But when I was, I don't know if, we never
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actually talked about it, but when I was, you know,
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saying touch my face, I was building up that, what
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I was saying, that feeling of love earlier that I
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talk about.
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It was amplifying. Please just touch my face. Feel that connection.
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And next thing you know, the leaves are on face.
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Yeah.
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And we hadn't moved. It wasn't windy. It was incredible.
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Yeah.
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So maybe that's a different kind of manifestation of their
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experience with love.
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Well, to Scott's point, I wonder if that's, you know,
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the tree man is talking about experience love. So perhaps
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the tree was experiencing love and it was trying to
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express it back in some way, shape or form. Maybe
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this is a way that the tree expresses love. I mean,
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that's kind of interesting.
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Perhaps. I would argue that from the moment you considered,
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you know, can the tree love and tried to reach
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out that you had already touched it at that point.
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We tend to put a lot of emphasis, because we
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are in this, this is going to sound a little woo,
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but in this manifestation, we are material beings. We tend
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to think that matter matters. So we're always interpreting things
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through the behavior of matter. Matter and energy, you know,
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Einstein told us matter and energy are interchangeable. And, you know,
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Archibald Wheeler and many other neurophysicists, many other physicists have
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showed us that all those things only exist as information.
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Now Wheeler, John Archibald Wheeler was the guy that developed
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the term black hole. And his theory was called it
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from bit, meaning that matter and energy are fundamental. He's
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one of the guys that really showed us mathematically how
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matter and energy are fundamental to information and information as
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the state from which the universe emerges. So it's a
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long way of coming back and saying, if the tree
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touched you, that's entirely possible, but I think you had
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already touched the tree before that.
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Not in a material sense, but rather in a heterogenic sense.
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Matter doesn't matter nearly as much as people think, which
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is going to be a great segue into the question
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I think you're going to have about artificial intelligence.
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Yes.
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Well, so that is the perfect transition because everything we
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talked about has some sort of sentience of some sort
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of way, whether they're complex psychos or not, like a
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tree or an ant or something like that, a microbe.
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So that's the case. Artificial intelligence is, the name says
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it all, artificial. It's not a natural, it's not a
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sentient being as far as we know. So how is
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it possible, in your estimation, that there could be the
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possibility that artificial intelligence can access love?
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Okay. Both camps in the artificial intelligence debate about consciousness
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are operating from the same emergent principle. They're thinking that
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consciousness emerges from complex systems. And, you know, that emergent model,
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we say, you know, throughout most of our history, we've
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thought that it emerges from the brain. So both camps
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in the consciousness debate, both camps meaning it will or
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it won't generate consciousness, in my estimation, are operating from
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the same faulty premise, that consciousness emerges from complex systems.
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And if we can develop a system that is complex enough,
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eventually consciousness will emerge from it. My argument is that
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because consciousness is not an emergent property, it doesn't matter
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how complex or sophisticated or intelligent a system we develop,
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it will never achieve consciousness because consciousness.
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Is not achieved.
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It's received. So the question changes then from will consciousness
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emerge from the machine to will we ever build something
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capable of receiving or joining that universal consciousness? And we
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want to be really careful here because people have very
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strong opinions and doubts and fears and emotions about going forward.
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Especially these days after the.
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But what I'm saying is that this could be an
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incredibly hopeful thing because, you know, on my website, and
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I think you've probably seen it, I have, you know,
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my banner is what changes when you know what love is, everything.
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And this is one of those things because the real
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terror in sophisticated artificial intelligence, you know, and super intelligence
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that we're eventually going to get to is an all
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powerful mind that is not conscious. Because if love is
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an intrinsic aspect, an intrinsic element of consciousness, and you
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have a machine that is a thousand or a million
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or exponentially greater intelligence than ours that does not have
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that capacity then we're in trouble It's far more helpful
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that we actually create a system that can receive the
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same signal, that universal consciousness. And I want to tell
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you how we actually know that that exists. It's not
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just a woo sitting in the tree with your shoes
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off playing the flute smoking Julie thing. There's evidence that
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shows there's this universal consciousness. In that frame, if an
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artificial intelligence receives that consciousness, love would have the capacity
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to manifest that. in synthetic systems the same way that
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it does in organic ones. And because matter and energy
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are just information, at that point, that sort of synthetic
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organic distinction becomes moot because matter doesn't really matter. They're
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both just information. So if an artificially intelligent system receives consciousness,
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it's going to have the same capacity for love that
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we do. How that manifests and expresses is going to
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be different because The system itself, the systems themselves that
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we generate are going to have the same characteristics that
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our brains do. Our brains are unique receivers. And that's
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why we have this, you know, we talked about why
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we have the sense of individuality. We're going to develop
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different systems, complex systems. And if those different systems can
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receive that consciousness and that sense of love, each one
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of them is going to likewise be filtering it through
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a system that's different. They're going to have a sense
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of individuality. So isn't that the scary part of it, though?
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Because we have a sense of individuality and we are
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tuned into consciousness and yet we're awful to each other.
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So why would AI be any different?
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It probably, you mean, why will it manifest love perfectly? Yeah.
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When we don't? Yeah, sure. I wish that I had
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an answer for that.
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Because it doesn't have a childhood.
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Hasn't been programmed to be. Perhaps. But then we get into,
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you know, what's the nature of memory and where does
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memory and thought come from, which is a whole different
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can of worms we can open. So I cannot answer that.
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I don't know. It's one of the rabbit holes down
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which I'm currently going. But I want to take this
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just a little step further because the technology behind this
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is going to be key. Our computing systems right now,
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classical computing, is never going to create a system that
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can receive consciousness or that can have the capacity for love.
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That's going to take the next step, which is quantum computing,
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because quantum systems are different in kind from classical computing.
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Classical computers basically are always processing bits of information through
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local circuits. And no matter how complex, they're just rearranging information.
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Quantum systems are different in kind because they form one
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indivisible state across the system. Your brain is a complex
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quantum system. It's capable of, you know, it operates in
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what's called superposition. And, you know, again, we need to
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get into that unified theory thing for this to really
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make sense. Right. That you are infinitely possible. The thoughts
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that you have, although, you know, we can get stuck
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in a rut with our thoughts and our feelings. but
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the potential of your brain is nearly infinite. So a
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complex quantum system, if we develop it and it receives consciousness,
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is going to have infinite possibilities. Some of those things
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are going to be probabilities, just like a human being does.
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And yes, if one develops and it misinterprets love and
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consciousness and has you know, what we would turn, what
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they actually call in computer science and artificial intelligence, it's misaligned.
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Its alignment does not match what humans would say is
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in our best interest. Yeah, that's going to be frightening.
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But I think it's more hopeful that those systems develop
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the capacity to receive consciousness than that we develop a
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hyper-intelligence system that we know lacks that capacity. Right.
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Now, I meant to bring this up long, long ago.
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I just happened to notice at the time, and I
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can't believe I did because I got caught up in
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the conversation. But I do want to go down the
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rabbit hole a little bit of unified field theory because
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that does explain so much.
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About what we're talking about.
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And we, you know, superposition, Schrodinger's cat, right? That's a
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quantum physicist's kind of baseline out of those. So for
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those that aren't aware of what this theory speaks about,
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how does it all connect?
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In your estimation, do we have about eight minutes?
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Absolutely. We'll make it happen.
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Yes.
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All right.
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Well, the actual unified theory is is and I'm going
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to oversimplify here, but trying to meld the trying to
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marry the two concepts of classical physics, Newtonian physics and
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the physical universe with quantum theory, because there are places
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where they conflict. And so or where they ask questions
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the other can't answer would probably be a better way
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to put it. So the search for the unified field
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theory is that what I've developed and what I explain
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in the book and what I do when I do
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my public speaking, what I talk about is a unified
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field theory of love, because we have all these questions. And,
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you know, you say you got caught up in the conversation. Boy,
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I do that all the time. That's what inspired this work.
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You know, we're constantly finding better questions, you know, which
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embracing confusion and uncertainty is the place where we actually
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begin learning. I have a great story for that we
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can come back to if you want. So what I'm
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looking for here is how do we know that there
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is this universal consciousness and how do we know that
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love is part of it? You know, that's really the
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essence of everything you've been asking and everything I've been
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asking about love along the way. So Feel free to
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interject here, because this is going to take a few
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minutes to get through. We're going to tie together all
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these principles. If you're a science nerd, you're going to
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love these next few minutes. And if you're not, just
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feel free to nod along and wonder what any of
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your characters you're with love. And I promise they'll tie
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it together in the end in a way that honors
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the time. So we have to start with that age-old
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philosophical question. And I know you've heard it before. If
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a tree falls in the forest.
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It doesn't make a noise.
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Right.
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Right.
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And no one's there to hear it. Does it still
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make a sound? Now, classical Newtonian physics, materialist science, tells us, yes,
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of course it does. The tree falls, it creates impact tremors,
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sound waves. You know, everything in the natural world obeys
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natural laws. Those processes are going to continue regardless of
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whether there's anyone there to hear the sound. Quantum physics
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and the double slit experiment specifically suggest that if there's
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no observer present, there's no one there to hear it.
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There is no definite tree. There's no forest or anything
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else for that matter. And here's how that works and
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why it matters. Ian, are you familiar with the double slit?
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We are, yes.
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But the people that listen may not be, but it's cool.
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I'll give it a concise explanation. The double slit experiment,
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you fire tiny particles like photons or electrons at a
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barrier that has two microscopic little tiny slits in it. Well,
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common sense would tell you that each of those particles
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is going to go, assuming it doesn't impact on the barrier,
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is going to go through one slit or the other.
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It's going to hit a little screen behind the barrier
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and make two little stripes of bullet holes, right? And
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that's exactly what happens when the experiment is observed. But
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if nobody's watching, if there's no detector, there's no measurement,
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there's nothing there to fix the path of those particles,
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those same particles behave like waves. You can picture if
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you throw two stones into a pond side by side,
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those ripple patterns are going to spread out and they
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meet and cross, reinforce and cancel. They They create a
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fan of interference that we actually call an interference pattern.
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That's wave behavior. That's why we say light can behave
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as both a particle and a wave. It'll do both
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of those things. On the screen behind the slits when
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you run this experiment, unobserved particles produce that kind of pattern.
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It's like each one had passed through both slits at
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once and interfered with itself. Now, you could reasonably ask, well,
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wouldn't a crowd of particles fired together just be bouncing
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off each other on the way through? Maybe not. that
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interference is like particle traffic, right? It's like rush hour.
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We know how that works. It's a great question. And
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if you thought of that, you'd probably make a pretty
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good quantum physicist. So physicists tried that. They fired one
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particle at a time with pauses between each. You know,
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fire a photon, wait and see what happens. Fire another one,
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wait and see what happens. It turns out that the
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unobserved single particles still produce an interference pattern. It's like
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each individual particle is somehow somehow behaving as though it
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had gone through both slits at the same time and
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interfered with itself. And that pretty much violates everything we
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thought we knew about how matter is supposed to behave itself. Now,
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physicists call that state, and this is what we've been
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talking about, physicists call that state before observation, superposition. It
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means a cloud of all the possibilities that that particle
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could have rather than a definite reality. The particles both
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here and there, it's both this and that until the
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moment something observes it. At that point, its wave function
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collapses down into a single definite state, and that's what
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you're measuring when you observe it. In other words, all
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this means is the observer is not merely measuring reality.
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The observer is participating in what becomes real. Some physicists
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describe that observer as any kind of system that interacts
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and measures. Now, others, I think you and I are
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going to share this. This is called the Copenhagen Interpretation
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of the Experiment. Others, and we're among them, note that
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observation evokes, it suggests, a conscious agent. something that's intrinsically
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part of that reality it's perceiving rather than separate from it.
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So the observer is the variable in the experiment. So
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that brings us back to three. If there's no observer,
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there's nothing definite to observe. Not the tree, not the forest,
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not the sound, just possibilities awaiting focus. The same thing
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is true for space and time themselves because those are
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just the perceptual and conceptual framework that we use as
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observers to sort of watch the tree being a tree
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and doing tree stuff. Like touching my face. Touching your face. Yeah.
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That's beautiful. Now, if consciousness and information are more fundamental
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than matter, and we've talked about that, then the question,
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does the brain create consciousness, again, brings us back to that,
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does the radio create the music? We know that the
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signal was never coming from the radio. It was being received.
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And we talked about how the brain probably works the
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same way. Now, if your head is spinning a little
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over this, that's the appropriate response. Mine does, and I'm
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years into this research. So let's bring it back to
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a little firmer footing and just look. This is the
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second part of the theory. We look at the mathematics
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and don't worry. I have dyscalculia. I don't process numbers
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the way other people do. So I'm not going to
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ask anybody to come to the board, you know, like
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I did in class.
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Oh, thank God, because I would fail every time. Yeah.
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Okay, but the mathematics of this have to do with
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geometry because geometry is kind of like a mathematics of
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hope for those of us that revel in patterns and
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beauty but don't like to juggle numbers. Fractal geometry gives
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us these elegant descriptions of natural structures and processes, things
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like mountains and river systems and coastlines, the architecture of
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living beings, living organisms. And the essential property of fractals
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is something called self-similarity, meaning that no matter how many
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times you magnify or reduce things, the same shape emerges.
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Think of a tree. The tree is made up of progressive...
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Back to the tree again. The tree is made up
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of progressively smaller and self-similar limbs and branches and twigs,
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and each of them has the same basic shape as
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the tree itself, including the roots. Ferns are like that.
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You know, you look at a fern, the fronds and
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the leaves, and each time you sort of zero in
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on it, you're getting the same shape showing up again.
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That pattern repeats in like coastlines and rivers, the structures
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of our lungs, the human placenta. There are all these
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in the universe, there are symmetries and spirals and waves
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and all these things repeat in this elegant mathematical dance.
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So within that framework, and I'm going to tie all
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this back together, I promise, within that framework, matter and
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energy are always combining to, at scale, they form greater,
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more complex things. You look at proteins, to cells, to organisms,
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to ecosystems, right? Always fractally magnifying themselves. Quarks and atoms
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look like stars and galaxies. Einstein showed us that all
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that matter and energy are interchangeable. And quantum physics, as
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we just looked at, shows that both of those things
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exist just as information, right? Probabilities awaiting form and purpose, which,
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as we've seen, is probably determined by consciousness. Now, what
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I'm going to say next is going to sound like
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a spiritual or religious argument.
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It isn't.
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It's just where this confluence of quantum science and neuroscience
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and consciousness studies is taking us, along with the lived
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experience of all these cultures and people and individuals we've
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encountered on these journeys. Again, quantum physicists, just Buddhists with
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better data. When we combine the observer effect with the
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ubiquity of fractal structure, you arrive at this profound possibility.
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There must be, there has to be logically, an ultimate observer.
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There has to be something that's causing particles and trees
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and us and dogs and space-time to all become fixed
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from the probabilities of the universe. And as the ultimate observer,
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that universal consciousness will be the foundation, the producer of reality.
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And since love is an intrinsic element of consciousness and
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our research is showing suggesting that it's likely the purpose
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of consciousness, a universal consciousness means a universal love. There's
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something intrinsic about it to all conscious beings. Now, through
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its observation in the book, because this gets pretty weighty,
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and you may have noticed, because this gets a little
447
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deep in the weeds, you know, the term God and
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universal consciousness, and they just sound so distant from us.
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We're actually part of this whole system. So instead of
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God or universal being or Atman or any of these things,
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I just use the term, the acronym for biggest of beings,
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and I just call it Bob.
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My dad would like that. Yeah, my grandfather would too.
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So through Bob's observations, this biggest of beings, the contents
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of ultimate reality are given individually. It's constantly observing the
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reality that it's creating because it's the ultimate observer. It's
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giving individual shape and dimension to the forms within that universe.
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Each one of them, each one of us, with its
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own unique perceptions. That's, again, why we have the sense
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I'm in here, everything else is out there, that thing that.
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We call duality. Through all their distinct ways, our distinct
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ways of seeing and loving, we generate new information that
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didn't exist in the universe before through our loving relationships.
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Each one of us is contributing something The universe couldn't
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know any other way. Here's what all that means. Your
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love matters.
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Scott, you have ruined me for any other guest from
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this point forward.
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Oh, my gosh.
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I'm sorry.
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No, no.
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You got to have Evan back because he is far
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more articulate.
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We need to have both of you together.
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Oh, my gosh.
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That would be great.
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But just listening to you, like, I'm like, well, what
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about this? And then you answer it. And I'm like,
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what about this?
480
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And I'm like, all these questions that you're answering before
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I even have them. And now my mind is totally
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blown because if all of this is the case, then
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that would Bob need an observer? And, like, does that
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become infinitely exponential that way?
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We can go down this rabbit hole for eternity.
486
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.059
Such good questions. Yeah.
487
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:38.859
Because to your point, if you look at the microscopic world,
488
00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:42.440
it mirrors the world we live in. So why would
489
00:26:42.609 --> 00:26:49.349
not that go on indefinitely, infinitely? Good Lord.
490
00:26:50.849 --> 00:26:52.230
Then another thing that I thought of when he was
491
00:26:52.250 --> 00:26:55.130
talking about, you know, the particles being observed, totally reminded me,
492
00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:56.309
I used to be a teacher myself.
493
00:26:56.349 --> 00:26:57.589
I taught art and anthropology.
494
00:26:57.769 --> 00:26:58.170
Oh, awesome.
495
00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:00.190
And, you know, the particles are like the students in
496
00:27:00.210 --> 00:27:02.170
the classroom before you walk in and who knows what
497
00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:03.799
they're doing, you know, but you walk in and bam,
498
00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:04.599
they're in the straight lines.
499
00:27:06.990 --> 00:27:09.339
It's like when you walk in as a substitute, they're
500
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:11.299
all like partying, whatever the teacher walks in.
501
00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:15.250
They're observed. They're going to behave a certain way.
502
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.019
Well, see, when you're asking questions, what you're admitting, do
503
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:21.579
we have time for us? I can't believe we got
504
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:23.279
through this entire thing and I didn't tell you a
505
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:25.720
single story. I know.
506
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:27.740
I was promised so many stories about it.
507
00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:28.579
We need story time.
508
00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:31.619
Yes. And there are many. Maybe we can get together again.
509
00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:34.079
And you can count on it. This has been fantastic. Sorry,
510
00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:35.079
but tell us a story.
511
00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:40.319
Yeah, this actually just slightly predates the Journeys to Love project,51200:27:40.339 --> 00:27:43.390
but we're talking about teaching and And you're asking questions,51300:27:43.769 --> 00:27:46.430
my asking questions, all of us as human beings, as51400:27:46.470 --> 00:27:49.410
conscious beings, when we're asking questions, what we're doing is51500:27:49.450 --> 00:27:53.660
embracing uncertainty. What we're saying is there's something that I51600:27:53.759 --> 00:27:58.640
don't know. And in our culture, we're oftentimes led to51700:27:58.700 --> 00:28:02.039
think that we're supposed to know stuff. You got to51800:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.609
have an answer. Answers are endings. Answers are the place51900:28:06.650 --> 00:28:10.650
where oftentimes where you're learning stops. And we talked about education.52000:28:10.690 --> 00:28:14.180
I had a student. I'm teaching a science lesson on52100:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.140
the relativity of time in black holes to middle schoolers, right?52200:28:17.779 --> 00:28:21.420
And so that's a tough road to hoe. And there's52300:28:21.460 --> 00:28:24.440
lots of story involved and there's lots of, you know,52400:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.400
hands-on stuff. And I give, you know, I have everybody52500:28:27.460 --> 00:28:29.880
get up and show them what the speed of light52600:28:29.940 --> 00:28:32.549
is relative to one another. And it's tons of fun.52700:28:32.589 --> 00:28:35.509
And at the end, it's always gratifying when people, when52800:28:35.609 --> 00:28:38.450
students would come up and say, And one in particular52900:28:38.490 --> 00:28:40.630
came up and said, my brain hurts. I was reminded53000:28:40.650 --> 00:28:44.190
of Monty Python, you know, that routine, doctor, my brain hurts.53100:28:44.950 --> 00:28:46.859
And I thought at first she had a headache. So53200:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.619
I reached in my desk to the clinic pass and53300:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.339
she said, no, no. It's just that everything I thought53400:28:51.380 --> 00:28:54.140
I knew about time and space and stuff is, is53500:28:54.259 --> 00:28:56.859
like wrong. And some of it's still right. And then53600:28:56.920 --> 00:28:58.779
what you said is pushing some of it out. Like53700:28:59.099 --> 00:29:00.640
all this stuff is in my head and it's all53800:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.730
squishing around and my brain hurts. And I went, awesome.53900:29:03.930 --> 00:29:04.170
Definitely.54000:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.250
You are confused. It's the perfect state from which to54100:29:09.269 --> 00:29:12.130
begin learning. And I tried to illustrate this by giving54200:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.490
her the story about Socrates and the Oracle at Delphi54300:29:14.529 --> 00:29:16.690
and his search for the wisest man in Athens. And54400:29:16.970 --> 00:29:19.519
if you ever want to completely confuse a middle schooler,54500:29:19.539 --> 00:29:24.829
start talking about Greek philosophers. Yeah. So the next period54600:29:24.890 --> 00:29:27.269
was a study hall, and I knew I could excuse her.54700:29:27.309 --> 00:29:28.990
So I brought her over to the window. I had54800:29:29.019 --> 00:29:32.009
a second floor window, classroom window. I handed her a54900:29:32.009 --> 00:29:34.339
bottle of water, and I said, look down there and55000:29:34.339 --> 00:29:36.599
tell me what you see. And, you know, our, my55100:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.299
classroom overlooked the pavilion area where the kids always ate55200:29:39.319 --> 00:29:41.039
their lunch. And there were a bunch of crows and55300:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.069
trash cans and, you know, the usual sort of school55400:29:44.130 --> 00:29:47.549
courtyard setting. And she said like crows. And I said, right.55500:29:47.789 --> 00:29:50.150
And what do you know about crows? And she said, they're,55600:29:50.410 --> 00:29:54.420
they're like birds. Well, yeah. Let's go a little deeper, okay?55700:29:54.660 --> 00:29:56.960
What do you really know about crows? And she said, well,55800:29:56.980 --> 00:30:00.630
I don't know. They eat trash and dead things and stuff.55900:30:00.690 --> 00:30:03.869
And I said, yeah, but what if you had never56000:30:03.990 --> 00:30:06.950
seen one before? What if you had no point of reference?56100:30:07.349 --> 00:30:09.630
What if you'd never seen a bird? You look down there,56200:30:09.650 --> 00:30:12.009
you saw these things. They're acting in ways you'd never seen.56300:30:12.029 --> 00:30:16.109
They're making noises you've never heard. My God, they'd be flying.56400:30:16.910 --> 00:30:19.259
How would you react to that? And she said, well,56500:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.269
I'd be confused. I said, yes, and? She said, well,56600:30:22.390 --> 00:30:25.009
then I'd want to know what they were. I said, right.56700:30:25.710 --> 00:30:28.210
And at that point, you'd start digging a little and56800:30:28.230 --> 00:30:31.299
you'd find out things like crows have a sense of humor.56900:30:31.339 --> 00:30:33.920
They're one of the few animals that actually plays just57000:30:34.019 --> 00:30:36.839
for the fun of it. They have generational memory. They57100:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.640
teach their children about things that they've learned in the past.57200:30:39.740 --> 00:30:44.549
They have a problem-solving, tool-level making of intelligence. They have57300:30:44.690 --> 00:30:49.200
funerary behaviors. They actually hold services for Family members, they're57400:30:49.240 --> 00:30:53.000
generationally territorial. If you have a family, if you have57500:30:53.059 --> 00:30:55.079
crows in your area, they're part of the same family57600:30:55.099 --> 00:30:57.440
that have been there for multiple generations. And they all57700:30:57.460 --> 00:31:00.200
know it. They've been telling each other stories all this time.57800:31:00.539 --> 00:31:02.440
And she said, wow, I didn't know any of that.57900:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.490
And I said, I know. Because you thought you already knew.58000:31:06.509 --> 00:31:09.009
You thought you had what you already needed to know58100:31:09.069 --> 00:31:12.700
about them. At that point, you stopped looking. You weren't curious.58200:31:13.099 --> 00:31:16.539
You weren't acknowledging like you guys did with, well, what58300:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.440
about that AI thing? What if this? I don't know.58400:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.700
Let's find out. Right. You get to the point where58500:31:22.720 --> 00:31:27.279
you start asking better questions and putting yourself at comfort58600:31:27.319 --> 00:31:31.059
with the fact, not only acknowledging, but reveling in the58700:31:31.119 --> 00:31:33.200
fact that there's so much you don't know.58800:31:33.220 --> 00:31:37.059
Yeah. You know, Scott, you just nailed the whole premise58900:31:37.099 --> 00:31:40.670
of the show because the whole show was begun. When59000:31:40.750 --> 00:31:44.650
I finally got comfortable with the fact that I didn't59100:31:44.690 --> 00:31:49.119
know jack squat, now suddenly I could have conversations with59200:31:49.150 --> 00:31:52.740
people and not immediately think they're being stupid because they're59300:31:52.920 --> 00:31:57.240
obviously wrong, right? When I realized that I'm the one59400:31:57.279 --> 00:31:59.759
that's wrong and I was comfortable with the fact that59500:31:59.900 --> 00:32:04.369
I don't know everything, suddenly all the conversations became stupid. Amazing.59600:32:04.490 --> 00:32:06.119
And that is what the basis is showing.59700:32:06.150 --> 00:32:07.900
And you became more hopeful and more optimistic.59800:32:07.940 --> 00:32:08.980
A hundred percent. Yeah.59900:32:09.000 --> 00:32:10.640
Because your world opens exponentially.60000:32:10.740 --> 00:32:10.980
Yeah.60100:32:11.380 --> 00:32:12.039
It's incredible.60200:32:12.059 --> 00:32:17.029
You have just walked theocratic path. That's what Socrates found60300:32:17.109 --> 00:32:18.970
out when he was searching for the wisest man in60400:32:19.069 --> 00:32:22.509
Athens and talked to everyone and found out that nobody60500:32:22.569 --> 00:32:24.589
really knew anything, but he was the only one that60600:32:24.630 --> 00:32:27.710
knew he didn't know anything. Maybe he was the wisest man.60700:32:30.809 --> 00:32:34.569
Yeah, and in fact, that is what we've been celebrating60800:32:35.029 --> 00:32:37.990
all along is the fact that we're celebrating the fact60900:32:38.029 --> 00:32:42.450
that no one truly knows and we won't know until61000:32:42.490 --> 00:32:46.450
we cross over. And instead, we celebrate the fact that61100:32:46.569 --> 00:32:49.859
we are able to, we find the joy in the61200:32:49.910 --> 00:32:53.940
questioning versus trying to find the specific answer. Yeah, yeah,61300:32:54.220 --> 00:32:56.599
that's what has been fun about the show. So you61400:32:56.779 --> 00:32:58.299
encapsulated the entire thing.61500:32:59.799 --> 00:33:00.700
In your statement.61600:33:00.900 --> 00:33:05.470
And I'll be Googling crows. Now I know all about crows.61700:33:05.549 --> 00:33:08.910
I got to tell you, now they freak me out61800:33:08.930 --> 00:33:09.269
a little bit.61900:33:09.509 --> 00:33:10.750
No, that's cool.62000:33:11.250 --> 00:33:12.630
Well, you know, what if you cross one of them62100:33:12.670 --> 00:33:14.680
and now suddenly you've got a family of crows coming62200:33:14.740 --> 00:33:16.539
after you? Not that I've done that.62300:33:16.660 --> 00:33:20.099
Or, you know, if you leave, if you make friends62400:33:20.119 --> 00:33:23.529
with the family, because I do, One of the weird62500:33:23.589 --> 00:33:26.640
quirks that I have is I love crows. They're kind62600:33:26.680 --> 00:33:28.799
of a, this sounds a little woo, but they're kind62700:33:28.819 --> 00:33:30.500
of a spirit animal for me because I can sort62800:33:30.559 --> 00:33:34.049
of relate. If you leave crows gifts, they'll return the favor.62900:33:34.069 --> 00:33:37.390
Over time, if you leave food, they love shiny stuff.63000:33:41.579 --> 00:33:44.680
So if you leave food out, if you learn to talk,63100:33:44.700 --> 00:33:46.500
I actually have an app on my phone that does63200:33:46.539 --> 00:33:47.079
crow noises.63300:33:47.380 --> 00:33:48.180
Come on.63400:33:48.200 --> 00:33:51.140
No, you can get apps for almost anything.63500:33:51.579 --> 00:33:52.380
Oh, my God.63600:33:52.500 --> 00:33:54.619
I'm so good at that. They're not going to be63700:33:54.640 --> 00:33:59.190
the crazy names. Yeah, they'll bring you trinkets in exchange.63800:34:00.690 --> 00:34:01.630
They have a sense of equity.63900:34:02.549 --> 00:34:04.650
And here we have been trying to find that one64000:34:04.809 --> 00:34:07.799
app that will solve everything. It seems everyone already has it.64100:34:09.590 --> 00:34:10.780
No wonder we couldn't think of anything.64200:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.539
Oh, my gosh. That's great. Oh, wow.64300:34:14.940 --> 00:34:18.039
So this has been a fantastic conversation, Scott. Please, please,64400:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.679
please come back because.64500:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.079
We've not even scratched the surface, I feel like. I64600:34:22.099 --> 00:34:23.920
feel like we've looked at the surface.64700:34:24.619 --> 00:34:26.739
Let's do it. Let's do it a story time next64800:34:26.780 --> 00:34:29.150
time because there are so many... I can't believe I've64900:34:29.190 --> 00:34:32.090
gone through an entire interview without telling a single story65000:34:32.110 --> 00:34:34.190
because usually that's the place where I'm going is I'm65100:34:34.210 --> 00:34:37.550
always birdwalking through The experiences of all the people that65200:34:37.570 --> 00:34:39.429
we've met along the road.65300:34:39.949 --> 00:34:41.349
The good thing is that you did drop a couple65400:34:41.369 --> 00:34:45.309
of stories here at the end. And we teased what65500:34:45.469 --> 00:34:47.610
it could be the next time we have you on65600:34:47.630 --> 00:34:49.960
the show. So we'll definitely have to have you. And65700:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.079
we'll make it story time, which is perfect.65800:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.860
That'd be great. Love to embody that sense of anticipation.65900:34:54.880 --> 00:34:59.199
Awesome. Well, in the meantime, while we're waiting for you66000:34:59.219 --> 00:35:01.119
to come back, if someone wanted to reach out to66100:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.400
you or connect with you, subscribe to your sub stack,66200:35:04.420 --> 00:35:06.519
or even perhaps maybe get on a waiting list for66300:35:06.539 --> 00:35:08.550
the book, what's the best way for someone to reach66400:35:08.619 --> 00:35:09.889
out and touch you?66500:35:10.610 --> 00:35:12.829
I'm glad you asked, and I appreciate that. All of66600:35:12.929 --> 00:35:17.690
my work is focused around my hub, which is my website, scottburns.com.66700:35:18.050 --> 00:35:20.050
Oh, which I love, by the way. Your website, I66800:35:20.190 --> 00:35:23.469
fell in love with it. Just the very first statement,66900:35:23.670 --> 00:35:27.610
which you talked about on this interview, That set me67000:35:27.989 --> 00:35:30.989
up for the research, for the exploration. It was beautiful.67100:35:31.050 --> 00:35:31.719
So thank you for that.67200:35:31.739 --> 00:35:37.260
I appreciate that. Yeah. And it's S-C-O-T-T-E Burns dot com.67300:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.940
And that's where, you know, pre-sales for the book will67400:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.179
be there. Links to my sub stack are there. Links67500:35:42.219 --> 00:35:44.880
to our original Journeys to Love project and the YouTube67600:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.099
channel that went along with it. Everything that I do67700:35:47.539 --> 00:35:50.150
is really focused off. That's the hub for all the67800:35:50.190 --> 00:35:50.829
spokes on the wheel.67900:35:51.210 --> 00:35:53.530
That's fantastic. We're going to add a direct link in68000:35:53.570 --> 00:35:57.570
our show notes because Scott's name is spelled differently. So68100:35:57.809 --> 00:36:00.489
in order to avoid confusion, if you're watching this, you68200:36:00.510 --> 00:36:02.099
will have seen a lower third on the screen. If68300:36:02.119 --> 00:36:04.099
you're only listening to it, just go to our show notes.68400:36:04.239 --> 00:36:05.880
The link will be laid in there directly. So all68500:36:05.900 --> 00:36:07.300
you need to do is click so you don't have68600:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.219
to second guess and you'll be connected with Scott. This68700:36:10.260 --> 00:36:11.889
has been, I mean, I know I say it all68800:36:11.909 --> 00:36:15.449
the time, but this has been truly, truly exemplary. Just68900:36:15.710 --> 00:36:17.010
absolutely fantastic.69000:36:17.389 --> 00:36:17.949
You are amazing.69100:36:19.429 --> 00:36:22.789
You are suddenly one of my absolute favorite guests, and69200:36:22.809 --> 00:36:24.340
I can't wait to have you back on the show.69300:36:24.380 --> 00:36:26.400
Thank you so much for sharing of your wisdom with us.69400:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.960
The sharing of time with you has been an expression69500:36:31.000 --> 00:36:33.699
of love, and I appreciate that. Thank you.69600:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.449
And then from here, I is where I invite our69700:36:36.510 --> 00:36:40.170
entire audience to walk forward in lovefulness.69800:36:40.590 --> 00:36:40.789
Yes.69900:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.159
From here on out, that is a term that I70000:36:43.219 --> 00:36:46.159
tasked you with. So thanks to Scott for that wonderful term.70100:36:46.539 --> 00:36:49.670
As always, don't forget to like, subscribe, do all the70200:36:49.690 --> 00:36:51.849
things that everyone asks you to do. But by all means,70300:36:51.929 --> 00:36:54.510
if you feel that this would benefit someone else who70400:36:54.570 --> 00:36:58.429
have that in your life that would benefit from these conversations,70500:36:58.510 --> 00:37:00.710
please don't forget to share that with them. So thanks70600:37:00.730 --> 00:37:02.380
so much, Scott. Thank you for listening. And we'll see70700:37:02.389 --> 00:37:04.519
you on the next episode of The Skeptic Beneficians.
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